Meet Jen Bonner And Rock Choir

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Well, hello and welcome to the choir director podcast, the essential resource for choir directors, conductors, and vocal leaders who want to build stronger choirs, run better rehearsals, and create outstanding musical experiences. I'm Russell Scott, and whether you're leading a community ensemble, a school group, a musical theatre choir, choral society, gospel choir, or you simply found yourself in charge because somebody needed to step up, this is the show for you. And this is episode three. I can hardly believe it. We're already three episodes in on this wonderful journey of ours. But today's guest is Jen Bonner, a Scotland-based rock choir leader and arranger who runs multiple choirs across the west of Scotland. Rock Choir is one of the UK's biggest contemporary community choir networks with over 30,000 members. Built around accessible pop repertoire, big feel-good performances, and a strong sense of belonging for singers of all experience levels. Jim Bonner, welcome to the show. Why don't we start off with uh a little bit of background about you?

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Sure. Um well I've I guess always been a singer, Russell, and uh at a young age I uh was in the Scottish National Choir. Uh so that was mostly focused on classical singing, but that got me into seeing choral arrangements and reading them and getting very used to parts singing uh and that way, and I I sort of loved it even as a small child, and got into the habit of teaching other people, people in my class, people at Guides, you name it, um, other parts and singing in harmony. And I guess it was something that I always loved. I didn't really uh take on at school though, it was one of those things where I went into a completely different field. So um I've spent my career first of all as an electronics engineer, and then secondly as a learning and development consultant. So I've kind of taken some of those skills, if you like, and when I decided on a career change a few years ago, it was always something that had been in the back of my mind. And although I've kept performing and kept arranging, uh it wasn't something that I'd really followed, been able to follow full time or be paid for it. It was more on a voluntary basis, and I'd actually been a member of a choir uh over that period of time, um Rock Choir, and I was a member for 11 years, and I heard that they were looking for a leader in my local area, and it just seemed too good to be true. So um I actually uh went for the job at that time, and since then everything's really gone from strength to strength. So it's it's come to me a lot more naturally than I thought it would, having done uh such different occupations up until now. But um, I'm happy to say it's my dream job, and I've I've loved doing it ever since.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

And I think that's why that's why we do what we do. Uh if you don't love something, you shouldn't do it.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

I think, you know, I think I think it's really important. And I think I think with something particularly creative and artistic as as music is, I think I think it's really in inside you. I think it's inside your soul, and and you've got to have the ability, I suppose, as a choir director, to to be able to inspire. And that's clearly something you do really well.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Yes, and it was funny to the words the end of my kind of non-music career, I started to go in a lot more into kind of motivational speaking and uh you know presentations and career coaching and things that are all designed to kind of inspire people and and make them enthusiastic and bring them joy, and it then just seemed like a natural progression to kind of all of those skills that I had of being in front of people and inspiring people to also attach my real passion, which was music and choirs. So it's been a marriage of those two things, and I think that's something that I I still try and look at all the time is is there a way I can make whatever I'm doing more inspiring and people want to be a part of it as much as enjoying the the music itself.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

How did that transition happen though? Because obviously you were you were going to choir every week and you were singing and you were taking part in these amazing experiences, but there must have been something at some point that made you think, gosh, I would love to get up there. And you know, did you did you start helping? Were you covering? Were you getting involved in the conducting side of things, or did you just see an opportunity and thought, I'd really love to do this? And with my you know, musical background, I really think I can have a have a good go at it.

From Engineering To Leading Choirs

SPEAKER_00 4:33

It's one of those uh just total chance things, to be honest with you, Russell, in that although it was a hobby and I did arrange things, I used to do performances with friends in small groups of you know, four, eight, that type of thing. Um, and I would teach in a very informal way, you know, really just you know, just helping people out. It wasn't standing in front of them, it was just more on a friendly basis. And then my sister was actually part of Glasgow Gospel Choir, which was very, very different to my style of singing. And their choir leader at that point had gone abroad and was out of the picture, and they were kind of in a bit of a difficult situation because they had a big concert at Christmas time, no choir leader, and no prospect of having one. So I um was asked if I could help out in any way, really, more they were just looking for any kind of assistance. So, with really no practice, no training, no nothing, I just kind of stepped in and said, right, let's pick a repertoire, let's have a look and start arranging things, and then just started doing it. And it I was really amazed at how natural it actually felt, and the the sense of satisfaction that I got out of doing it, of standing in front of them just took blew me away, and it it was so nice to actually feel that I had those skills and those abilities that I'd never really considered that I had, and they just kind of came out.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

How was how how easy was it to conduct the choir at the beginning when you had been a member of the choir, and then the your your friends, your peers all then were had you know were looking up to you as the leader? How did that feel?

SPEAKER_00 6:17

Well, I'm very actually lucky in that one because I I would find that very, very difficult. But the choir that I was a part of as a member was actually a little bit further away, and the choir that I took over was one that was very close to my house. So they were on the same night, so I've never been in the position of having to lead my own choir that I was a member of. I I could think that would be hard for anyone.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

But you had to give up singing though, you had to give up singing with them, which must have been, you know, there must be times where you thought, I'd love to still be singing and I'd love to be be doing that still, because being part of a group with of you know of such magnitude as rock choir is from time to time when you all get together, yeah, uh, must be really electrifying to be proud of.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

Well, it's funny you should say that. I know that I was thinking of today what some of the tips that I might have for other choir leaders and conductors. And one of the ones that I have, which might be a little bit different, is be a member. And I've found that being a member all of that time has given me such a unique perspective on what people really want from their conductor, what things can make it more fun, what things make you feel heard and understood, what is really important to you as a member of that choir. So I've also, since I've been a leader, is taken every opportunity to still be a member, whether that's attending things like choir festivals, which I did as an individual, even while I was a conductor. If there are short-term things, so for example, three-day workshops, um, Corinne Polwart, who's a fantastic singer-songwriter in Scotland, she ran a four-day workshop in London to be part of a choir there. And there's been more local ones too. And at the moment, I'm actually a member of a choir, which is um very different in a lot of different ways, but it's still giving me that sensation of being a member and experiencing that, and I'm able to take that feeling into being a conductor. So I actually think for everyone it's good to be on the other side of the fence now and again.

First Conducting Gigs And Confidence

SPEAKER_01 8:20

I agree with that. I agree with that a lot because I've come from a choral background as well, singing in choirs for for years, and still do sometimes in in professional choirs. And I think I think it really gives you an insight to how people feel when you're conducting and how and what challenges they're facing. And they can also appreciate, and you can appreciate, I suppose, you know, what it what the challenges are from both sides, musically and in terms of of leadership. And the leadership part is I think is is very challenging because you have to inspire, even when you are perhaps in a bit of a grotty mood from time to time, or you're stressed, or something's challenging you about the music, exhausted, frustrated, all of those things. How do you deal with those sort of challenges? Because it is for every choir conductor, I think it's it's a big challenge. You know, you walk in, you have to be, you know, fresh-faced, and you have to be energetic and inspirational, and you've got to be full of energy and you've got to motivate people. And you don't always get the response that you're expecting, do you?

SPEAKER_00 9:26

No, you don't, and sometimes you can't really predict how people will react to things, so you can be full of the joys and enthusiasm, and then for some reason that rehearsal just doesn't work the way that you thought it would. You can't always put your finger as to why. Um, I do always try to be as flexible as I can and try and read the mood, and if something's not working, try a different approach then and there, rather than letting something that doesn't feel right continue on in the same way. So, um, with regards to my own, I think, um, and you might be the same, Russell, that you have a different persona as a choir leader to your normal person, and I'm I would say quite shy, maybe a bit introverted. Um, I wouldn't necessarily go up to strangers and social groups and start chatting. However, as a choir leader, that's not what's called for. You need to have a larger than life personality, and you need to be that kind of high-level positivity and get that across because I'm aware that if I came on with a very negative kind of approach to something, my choir would just mirror that so closely, so it would not get a good response. So I'm always conscious that every single rehearsal, so I do six rehearsals a week, and it's effectively the same rehearsal six times, and I'm constantly adapting and constantly improving and seeing how things work, and always making sure that every single one is just marginally better than the one before. And to do that, that is what kind of keeps me interested in saying, can I make this better? Is there a way to make it more effective? Can I make it more fun? And and that's how I try to treat it rather than oh, I'm doing the same thing again, and and they wouldn't really be get a good experience from that.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

And and also I think I think you're helping to change people's lives as well. You are making a difference to their lives. You have that huge amount of power and responsibility to change somebody's feeling that day. Perhaps they've come in to rehearsal having had a terrible day at work, or they've got some stresses at home, or personal situations, or medical issues, or all sorts of things that come in the door. And you don't know every single person on a one-to-one basis as to what goes on in in their lives, you know, 24-7. And you have that ability, that that responsibility, I suppose, to give them an experience, and they want to try and forget everything. And I think that's one of the fantastic things that that we can bring to the table as choir directors. And I think it's one of the things that sometimes choir members don't realise until they've been singing in a choir. And I think singing in a choir such as rock choir, for example, where I've seen for myself, I've seen, you know, I've seen how people react, I've seen the joy, I've seen what they share together socially, and that social experience is so great, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 12:21

It is, and to me, it actually goes hand in hand with the singing. I don't think you could have one without the other, and I very much encourage that aspect of it. So we do a lot of performing. I mean, uh, different choirs do different amounts, but it's you know a really strong focus, is to get things ready to perform in so many different kinds of places. And I think so much about is there a way that we could meet up socially before it, do something after it? Um, can we tie in some kind of going out or whatever around it? Encourage people to quite a lot of the places that we sing, whether it's for charities or superstores, wherever we are, to do some kind of tea and coffee in the middle where everyone gets a chance to talk. And for a lot of the people that come to my choir, rock choir has become a social outlet for them, and they might not have a whole lot of other things going on in their life at that particular time. And as you say, some of them have been through some really awful experiences, and it's been having that positivity and those relationships that they've got friendships from, and that has kept them going. And I'm so touched actually. I that's kind of the thing I'm most touched by when um I get comments from members, and whether they send me cards or they just come up and tell me, is that they've been through some really, really hard times, but having that rock wire and having you know to come and see me every week and being lifted up has meant so much to them and has got them through that really difficult period. So that also makes it so worthwhile, and you think you can have that kind of impact on someone's life. Um, why would you not want to be part of that?

Staying A Choir Member For Insight

SPEAKER_01 13:59

Yeah, and I think I think also that when they they they come to choir, they come to forget everything, they come to sing, and we obviously all know the benefits of singing, and we don't have to go over and over and over the same things that we've heard a billion times, but we do continue to make people feel great about themselves. That's what we're we're there to do. Um, it's it is a struggle sometimes because musically you get frustrated, don't you? I'm sure. You know, you want the what you want the altos to sing the right part, or you don't want somebody drifting onto a line they're not supposed to be drifting on. How do you deal with those sort of challenges? Because I think every choir director suffers from these problems.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Well, I try and um my own approach is to just have a bit of fun with it. So if something goes really badly wrong, I I I mean, I think we can all laugh at it. And I think if I they show that it's it's fine to make a mistake, and I'm I'm very, very clear that I would much rather they made all the mistakes in the world at a rock rehearsal. There's no one there to see them, and I'd rather they did that and I could hear it and then I could fix it rather than sitting and being so terrified to get it wrong that they don't even sing anything. So I encourage that, and it's very lighthearted, and I also generally encourage people to ask questions if they're really struggling and they've really missed it, what we're what we're doing, and because of that, everything feels quite lighthearted, and I actually think they learn better in that kind of an atmosphere where making mistakes is totally fine. I don't really ever lose my patience. There are some times when I go, Oh my goodness, if something's been really hard to listen to, but even then you're like, Oh, you know, that's that's been quite interesting. Well, let's just do that again and then fix it. I don't ever really uh let it get me down. And I think I always think to myself, there's always next week. So if there's anything that doesn't really work, there's no point in keeping going with it and depressing everybody. You can say, Well, I think we're gonna leave that there and we'll pick that up again. Let's do something else and then lift the mood again. So I'm very conscious of never letting any one issue or one problem really take my rehearsal down or me down.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Yeah, and that's important too, because you've got to feel good too. It's not it, you know, it's about everybody, or everybody in the room. Um, it it's it's always something I I always say to people is is that I'd rather you make a mistake and and sing it loudly so I can hear it, because you can't change something you can't hear.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

Yes, very much so.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

I think I think that's important. So I we know that uh with with rock choir and those people that have uh seen rock choir in action um know that rock choir move. So how do you put these moves in? Who decides on the moves and uh how do you put them in and at what point? Do you do them right at the beginning or as you go through the music, or do you put them in at the end once everybody's learnt the music?

Managing Energy, Mood, And Leadership

SPEAKER_00 16:46

Um it's a really interesting idea. So I'm I'm very fortunate. A lot of choir leaders are out on their own as an individual. Um, however, uh Rockhoir has over a hundred choir leaders across the UK, and therefore we've got a central team. Um, so I think there's about 40 people in our head office. So we've got the creative team who do all of the arrangements uh that we do that are very much designed for the audience. Um we have people on there who work on the choreography, and they will provide us with a routine document that go alongside all of the songs. Now, the way that I teach it is that I do it as I go along. So if I teach a verse, I then immediately see this is what happens and demonstrate it, and then we sing it again with those movements, and it's actually designed in a way so that every single chorus you do the same move, every single verse you do the same move. If it's a bridge, you do something different, and all of that actually helps, I find, a lot with um memorizing the lyrics because again, rock wire don't use lyrics or music to perform. So I find by getting them to move their bodies and do that, somehow it helps everything else stick and the harmonies stick when they don't have sheet music in front of them to go from. So all the way through I'm implanting it, and then also the way that I conduct is very, very clearly. Um, all of my movements are very clear, and I anticipate all of the movements a few seconds before they're due to happen. So I'm signaling before they move. So even if they're not, you know, they don't have to memorize them, if they're watching me closely, they will always feel quite comfortable that they know what's going to happen next. So I actually find it a really useful part of my teaching. I never thought that before I started. I thought there's no way I'm gonna remember this. But as a conductor, all of those movements, it feels like a choreographed dance for me and all of the signs that I would do, and that's how I learn the pieces of music is by almost choreographing my own dance to go alongside it.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

And you're you're you're you're you're also very facially expressive, and and that's a wonderful thing as as a choir director because it's all it's all in the eyes. They say this, it's all in the eyes, it's all in the facial expressions. It's not just what you're doing with your hands, what you're doing with your body, it's in the facial expressions. And you I have seen you on stage and you do light up the room, and people look at you and they are smiling immediately, and they trust you, and that is a wonderful thing to have. And you have you do have this ability, you know. When I've seen you perform with hundreds of people, you do have the ability to hold it all together, which is so, so important. But what do you what do you do when you're seeing people? Some people at times, I'm sure it happens not very often, of course, but when you see people, you know, suddenly they go the wrong way or it's swaying in the wrong direction, there's always one that's going in the wrong direction and bumping shoulders and not realizing it at all. What do you do?

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Um, well, there's two answers to that question. So sometimes, inevitably, there's someone that does something wrong, and quite spectacularly so. Um, there's one song that we do, it's famous for it because it catches somebody out very regularly. Where at the start of the song, they're not doing anything, but I am trying to get them to be really loud, so I will put my hands up, and there's always one person that's so carried away with the moment that they stick their hands up in the air. So we we talk about it, we talk about it at rehearsals and we discuss performance mode quite a lot. So if we're at a performance and this happens, what do you do? So I make it quite clear that if somebody does something that's a little bit unusual, wrong, uh, that you just carry on, you don't go, oh gosh, and then make it worse. You just style it out as if you actually meant to do it, and that makes them feel as if, well, it's better to be enthusiastic and slightly wrong and then pick it up. And that's what I want people to do is recover quickly and not to let them be in such a state that they can't really sing and enjoy the rest of the song. I don't, I don't ever feel that it takes away a whole lot from our performance. It would be ideal if everyone did uh everything correct 100% of the time, but it will never happen. So I just have to make sure that the 99% of them do, and then the one that goes wrong gets over it quickly and we move on. If I see someone continuing to do stuff wrong, I will usually spot them and I'll give them a signal as to what they should be doing. In the moment, it is hard when there's over a hundred of them, but I can do it when when I need to.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

And and it's uh as you say, you know, that the every single performance is different. You're never gonna get 100% perfect. And I don't think any per any performance ever is a hundred percent perfect. And I think that's what makes live live performing so exciting uh every single time. You know, it's why you go, you know, when you're watching concerts or you go and see shows, you go multiple times because you never get the same experience twice, and that's really, really an amazing thing. So tell me about some of the most exciting projects that you've done. What sort of projects have you done? And what what sort of projects do you do? And what what is it about them that makes them exciting for your membership?

Making Mistakes Safe And Useful

SPEAKER_00 22:14

Um, I think some of the experiences that we have that have been the most exciting have been the ones that you know that a member on their own or as part of a group would just never be able to do it. But because of the size and scale of rock war, you can sometimes do these experiences. So one of the most impactful that we did was I took my choir to Abbey Road Studios in London to record a song. Well, a few songs. And what it meant was a lot more rehearsals, really perfecting things, you know, even the tiny things, just making sure it was as good as it could possibly be, and then talking through how a recording would work and how important it was, and looking at all the aspects of when to sing, when not to sing, not to move, which was hard, all of that kind of stuff. Um and obviously Abbey Road is an iconic building anyway, so to get the full tour, people are talking about the Beatles, you do a Beatles warm-up, and all you just try and make sure that everything about that day makes people feel really valued and special. And then being in that enormous room where all of these amazing bands and orchestras had been, and uh pooling together all of those people, I think there was 250 in the room, and it just the most amazing sound, the most amazing sound, and people were better than they had ever been just because of the environment, and they were looking at me so closely that I was able to get an even better performance out of them. And the fabulous thing about that particular day was they then played it back through the enormous speakers that they had in the room, and people were in tears just listening, and they feel that they're an ordinary person, they're only a tiny person in this enormous group, and a lot of them don't even consider themselves to be singers, they just think, you know, I'm I'm there for fun, I'm there to make friends, you know, I'm I'm not really a singer, and then they just heard this amazing sound, so it was such an emotional day and just so worthwhile.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

And you come together with uh from time to time with all of the rock choirs all around the country, I think, as well, don't you?

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Yes. So um, I mean, I can join up any of my choirs, um, I can join up uh with the other Scottish leaders. We've probably got about 3,000 between us. Um, but what we do like to do every so often, so for example, it was Rockquire's uh 20th anniversary um last year, so we went to the Birmingham NEC Arena, and that's an enormous uh one. So we had over 15,000 of Rockwar members there, and that enabled us not only to bring together all of those people but to bring on a whole lot of special guests who were there because it was a special show. So we had um Russell Watson, he's obviously more well known for classical things, but then a Scottish singer-songwriter, Emily Sandy, was there, and Sam Ryder, who's obviously quite famous for being on Eurovision. So getting all these special guests, getting all the kind of pyrotechnics, the lighting, the sound, and just being a huge big show. And again, members are are getting the chance not only to be there, of course, which is great in itself, but we learned songs by uh Sam Ryder and by Emily Sandy in our rehearsals, and we've been practicing them for weeks. So when those artists that had written those songs were on stage, the whole place was singing with them, and what an experience that was! And I was just so touched that all of the time and effort, blood, sweat, and tears teaching those songs, and they were actually getting the opportunity to sing it with the artist that had written them with another 15,000 people, and you just can't get that kind of experience every day, so that meant so much to all of us.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

Wow, sounds sounds amazing! Sounds absolutely amazing. Do you do I presumably you do some smaller stuff as well? Because that that you know, you've been on some big stages. Do you do lots of local events as well, or do you tend to work for the bigger, bigger events?

SPEAKER_00 26:19

Well, um, I think actually variety is the spice of life, and whilst it's wonderful to do these enormous events, um also I think my members enjoy just as much the really small things. So we are uh very famous, I guess, for going into care homes and going into shopping centres and doing helping out with charity events. We are all the time raising money for every single charity that's kind of local to us, um, that we have a connection with. And I think that my members enjoy that because they are can actually see the effect of their songs on the people that they're singing with. Um my own personal favourite is I love singing alongside marathons and 10Ks and fun runs, and then people just love having that kind of motivation to keep going and running past you while you're singing, and although those people are usually there for some charity or or another, so I think you should do a little bit of everything. If you only do ever really, really formal or ticketed events, that turns you into a type of choir. But when you get to share it with lots and lots of different people, you can bring joy to so many different walks of life that um I think that makes us a more well-rounded choir.

Teaching Choreography And Memorisation

SPEAKER_01 27:39

And you're clearly so passionate, and that's that's lovely. And I think I think I think that's what makes a choir leader really great is their passion, their passion, obviously, their talent, all the things that to do the job are very important, but it's about the person doing it as well. It's about that leadership, it's about having a passion and really loving what you do that you can inspire others to to feel part of that, and I think that's it's a it's a tricky thing to to balance, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 28:05

Uh it's a tricky thing to balance, but I'm always so conscious that whatever energy I put into rehearsals and performances, my members will match it to about 75% of whatever I am. So I'm always that little bit more to encourage them to lift it a little bit. And I think also that enables me to love the songs, and even if um you know not all it's a bit of a slog getting through it, you can always find some element to love, and you can hear one harmony section singing something so beautifully that you can go, that was just amazing. I just love that, and it's not that you praise everything all of the time, otherwise, it doesn't mean anything, but you you make sure that there are always elements that you can point to and say, You have done that so well, you have you know really raised your game in that bit, that's you know absolutely perfect, and I think doing that and having that positivity just makes them feel really good about what they're doing, that they're really achieving something every single week. Um, I always try to fully utilize my warm-up uh to encompass anything that I'm going to be going on to teach. So if I'm going to be really talking a lot about dynamics, for example, then I will make sure that my vocal warm-up is really focused on dynamics and then it's making sure to then link that and say the reason we're doing this is because of this later, and then to refer back to it. So that tends to go down really well with members because they've then got that in their heads while they're learning the new material. Um, I like to shake things up in rehearsal a lot. So if my choir are very used to sitting in rows and they're used to sitting down, then I'll make sure that when we practice it, we'll stand up. We might separate out and two halves of the choir face each other. And one of my favourite things to do is to put people in a big circle so that they they don't just hear their own section actually singing, they get to hear the full effect of the whole choir, and that can really change your feelings about a song and really make it much more emotional. Um, and I think my my final tip is to find ways to bring in fun and laughter at all points, whether that's doing something ridiculous in your physical warm-up at the start, whether that's putting silly words into a difficult passage rather than doing oohs and ahs just to kind of bring it to life, and even making silly faces at certain points to get a certain effect from the music. I think doing all of those little things, people do remember it, and again, it's a way of kind of lifting the mood and uh giving them something to laugh about, even if the the song you're doing happens to be a really kind of sad or really emotional one, but all those little things keep the mood light and keep people interested.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

Have you had any really, really funny experiences or or disasters that you look back on that were really funny? I've certainly had a few in my career, and I just I'm always interested to hear what what else goes on out there that we don't see. Who else is experiencing these crazy things?

SPEAKER_00 31:08

Well, I would say that almost our recurring theme is people trying to run me down uh whenever I've been out and about. So I do a lot of outside gigs. Um, we have done, for example, uh sung outside Morrison's superstore, and some guy was intent on running me down with his trolley. Uh, we have sung in the middle of a high street in which it's a pedestrian area, but someone drove their car in and then tried to reverse through the choir. We literally had to park to let the car out. It it was insane. And then one of the funniest was actually just a few weeks ago at Christmas time, I was trying to conduct the choir in front of a path, and Santa on a massive sleigh with elves literally came towards me, and there was nothing I could do. I just had to get out of the way, and the choir could no longer see me. And Santa and his sleigh was not only followed by the elves, they were followed by members of the territorial army who were escorting Santa, and then a parade of mums and buggies and lots of kids. So I was apart from the choir for a good six, seven minutes, and I just had to let them get on with it.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

Oh my goodness, that is hilarious. I told you, everyone has a story, every single choir director has a story. I'm not going to share you mine right now, but anyway, Jen, it's been such a pleasure talking with you this afternoon. Thank you so much for your time. Carry on doing the amazing work you do. You do it so well, and you've got such a lovely choir with you. I wish you all the very, very best.

Closing Thanks And Listener Support

SPEAKER_00 32:48

Thank you so much. Thank you for talking to me.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

Well, that's it for today's show. I hope you've enjoyed it. What a great uh interview that was. It was really lovely to spend some time talking with Jen today. Don't forget to review, share, like, follow, and all those other wonderful things to help us spread the word of the choir director podcast. We want to get to as many people as possible, help as many people as possible, and spread the choir love. Oh, that sounds so cheesy. Well, we'll leave you with some cheese at the end of the day. I hope you've enjoyed the show. Have a great week ahead, and we look forward to seeing you very, very soon.