Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Welcome back to the choir director podcast with me, Russell Scott, the essential resource for choir directors, conductors, and vocal leaders who want to build stronger choirs, run better rehearsals, and create outstanding musical experiences. What an incredible couple of weeks it's been since we launched the show, with now over a thousand downloads reported in the first week across 47 countries worldwide. That's absolutely insane. Thank you so much. Thank you for liking, thank you for listening, for downloading and spreading the word as we continue to do more and more for choir directors and conductors around the world to support them in their rehearsals, in their performances, and running their choirs. And I can't wait to share them with you. I've got some other episodes, of course, in the pipeline as well. Just giving you some tips and help along the way. And today is no exception, we have a fantastic guest on the show, Kira Sheeran. A choral practitioner and gospel music specialist based in Galway in Ireland, for over 25 years, Kira has been championing gospel music in Ireland, leading the Ignite Gospel Choir, and facilitating a network of over 120 Gospel choir directors across Europe and the US. Welcome, Kira. It's lovely to have you on the show today, all the way from Galway in Ireland. Um, tell me first of all, tell me a little bit about your background and and how this all began. How did you get into music? How did you particularly get into gospel music?

How Gospel Choirs Grow In Ireland

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Okay, great question. So I kind of grew up uh in a musical family. So Dad is the chief reason I suppose I have the gifting that I have. So when I was born, Dad already had a little folk folk group in the Catholic Church that he used to kind of bring 12 singers together, they'd sing for the church service, and I grew up in and through that. And alongside that, my father and mother also went to the Pentecostal church. So I had both the Pentecostal music and that kind of folk music hymns and stuff like that. So I kind of grew up in it, but I had no desire necessarily to ever be a choir director, it was never on the radar until I was in my late 20s and I was singing for a church service myself and the piano, just you know, do my thing. And somebody approached me to ask if I if I was planning to start a choir or do something because they would like to sing. And the truth is, I was actually considering immigration at that time, and so I said, I made no commitments. I said, leave it with me, let me think about it. Because I knew that if I was going to start a choir, I was never going to leave. It was a commitment that I would probably make for the rest of my life. It's kind of like a marriage. And here I am, over 20 years later, I didn't immigrate, and the choir's gone from strength to strength. So that's kind of it in a nutshell. Uh, but that's kind of how it started.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

And it's interesting that you don't, when you think of Ireland, you don't associate Ireland with gospel music. You you know, you you think about Irish music, Celtic music, you Gaelic music, you just don't think about you don't think about gospel music. So how how has how has gospel been created in Ireland and how big is it in Ireland?

Defining Authentic Gospel Sound

SPEAKER_01 3:25

So I think from my my personal uh experience growing up in a Pentecostal environment opened out all of that genre of music. So I would have heard Kirk Franklin as a teenager. So kind of grew up listening to those kind of giants, Ron Cannoli, Richard Smallwood, Donald Lawrence, there's a long, long list. Um, but that was just my personal listening as a teenager because I was in the in that church environment. Um now there are gospel choirs in Ireland that are over 30 years old. Now, you might think that, well, that's not too old, but actually that kind of feels like a long time to some of us because I'm over the 20-year bracket now at this stage, and I'm doing it my whole life, and I'm 46. So there is a lot of gospel choirs around Ireland. A lot of them are new, maybe in the last five, 10, 15 years. Um, and so it's just it's just a discovery, I think. Uh for me, it was through church. So it made sense that I would go down maybe the praise and worship type of music first. And then, well, my choir is the ignite gospel, choir. What is gospel? So the onus was on me to study what I'm actually promoting because gospel, the word gospel means good news. So you can use hymns, you can use you know, songs of good messages, but what is gospel music? What is the root of gospel music? So I suppose maybe eight or ten years into directing my gospel choir, I sat with that question and said, Well, we're singing all the nice songs, but where where is God what is gospel? It's out there on its own. It's not praise and worship sounding, it's got its own authentic sound. And so I started to study it and reach out and educate myself and then kind of gently change the direction of my choir to be gospel sounding.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

And that's because you wanted to be a gospel choir, or you felt that that's that's what you could lead because you felt the gospel music?

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Um, that's a good question. Um, all of it and none of it. Um, I suppose I want I I'm neurodivergent. So if I'm going to do something, I want to do it. If I'm gonna call myself something, I want to be authentically that. So I was calling my choir a gospel choir. And yes, we were singing great songs that were hymn-based, maybe. We all sing How Great Thou Art or Amazing Grace, people know these songs. But when you're singing Oh Happy Day, that's actually a different genre. That's gospel, and that was written by Edwin Hawkin. So it's kind of like, what is the root of that? So when I started to study, like I was saying, what is gospel music? And it creates its own sound, it has its own discipline. You you need to kind of rise to the challenge of how do I get Irish people who love to sing ballads, who's who are storytellers to learn how to syncopate, you know, uh because gospel music is very expressive and syncopation is you know integral to the sound. So yeah, just changed. I ch I just it just very naturally progressed into studying a sound and going off in that direction.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Do you think that there is a uh a transition between church music and gospel music? And I don't mean I don't mean you know church gospel music, because there are there are many different different ways of singing gospel, there are many different types of gospel music. You know, we have the very uh traditional gospel music, we have pop gospel music now, which is insanely popular and and in universities as well. There's lots of un and I I I am uh one of the judges for the uh University Gospel choir of the year, and and you see these amazing university choirs singing gospel music, and it doesn't matter what your background is, what colour you are, what race you are, what your beliefs are, you can sing this music. But how does it tradition uh how does it transition from Irish uh folk music almost, church music, into gospel music? Because obviously there is a there is a uh you know, when when you think about gospel music, you immediately go to southern states of the US and you think about gospel music. How does that transition?

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Ah, another good question. Um, I suppose I s when I started my choir, I started off with what I knew. So those were the songs my father taught me. Those are the songs that I grew up in church knowing. So my gospel choir would have started with all of that type of music, which would have been hill song. It was very popular back in the 90s, and they created their own sound, which is very much a contemporary Christian sound. Um, and so I kind of started with what I knew, you know, uh, and not to overly repeat myself, you know, I I went to study and understand the sound differences because they're they they just sound different. The the vowel sounds, the bending of the notes, the jazz nearly, the sassiness of gospel. And I suppose I I personally like the older the better. I like the gospel music of the the 70s and 80s, and I think they were that was a great generation of gospel music. So I love that, but I also love the more modern, you know. Cece Wynan has thrown out some amazing songs. People in churches and choirs all over are singing the goodness of God, holy forever. That's gospel too, but it has she has her own sound, it's more of a contemporary modern gospel sound. So I suppose when when I look at the Ignite Gospel choir, I look to our strengths. We're an Irish choir, and we have, as you can tell, a beautiful Irish accent. And my choir is it's actually very international. I've got people from Poland and Italy and from all around. So now we're working with vowel sounds that are very different. Our THs are very different, and so bringing that into a gospel sound, you know, it just takes time and working it out, as it were. But that's I don't know if I'm quite answering your question right, but it just takes the time for a choir to kind of transition to sound the way that you know what you want to represent, if that makes sense.

Starting With Four Singers

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Absolutely, and that there are no correct answers, you know. This is this is about you and your feelings and and what makes you um and what creates your choir. And talking about your choir, so so when you started your choir, you decided I want to create a gospel choir because I am passionate about gospel music, I understand gospel music, I connect with gospel music. When you created your choir, how did it begin? Because you've obviously got to be able to communicate that passion and excite other people, and obviously gospel music is hugely exciting and hugely popular, and we love gospel music. But how you know I'm sure when you said I'm gonna form a choir and it's gonna be a gospel choir, and every must everyone must have gone, Wow, I want to be a part of that. How did it begin?

SPEAKER_01 10:23

It didn't begin like that for me, actually. It didn't, it didn't have that emphasis of gospel. What started my heart condition to starting the choir was somebody wanted to sing. It took one, and like a pebble on you know, cam water, the ripples kind of went out. So the best that I could do in that moment, which was in the late noughties, um was create a gospel choir, but not in the sense of gospel music, but it was something that felt a little bit more edgy because I was working out of the Catholic Church. So, ooh, gospel choir in the Catholic Church. So, you know, I started off with four singers, four people came together, and back in those days, uh, I don't read music, so everything I do is by ear. And so I'd sit at the piano, they sit around me, I give the melody to one person, and then a third above that they go because I can hear harmonies. And for the first eight or ten years, it was me figuring out how to teach, and the choir grew from four to about 25 singers in about six months, and then eight years in, I had over a hundred people, but then we were beginning to I was challenging myself to really look at the types of songs my choir wanted to sing, but to bring something new and refreshing to the church that we were singing in as well, because everybody was used to singing hymn hymns, and now we're bringing in the oh happy day and shackles and what they're clapping their hands, are you nuts? And so we're we're slowly educating a congregation of people that have not experienced this, so it didn't start with the emphasis of wanting to sing gospel music, it started off with you know providing a service to a community who wanted to sing, and then it grew.

Leadership Growth And Finding Your Why

SPEAKER_00 12:14

I love I love that transparency. I love the transparency of I kind of didn't know what uh what I was doing, but I just wanted to get in there and make some music and do something, and and that's a wonderful, wonderful thing because you know you you can start a choir, you know, just like that. Um whether it's gonna make you know become anything is up to the leader and how the leader decides to run things. And of course, you know, i with there are many, many, many very experienced choir directors uh listening to this show, and I suspect they'll be they'll be thinking to themselves, yeah, for that for what you did, that's quite an achievement because you just wanted to get in there and make music and you didn't really know what it was gonna be at that moment. It's evolved organically, and something has you know it's been very special. Was there a moment that made you think, yes, I can do this? And did something change at that point going forward?

SPEAKER_01 13:10

Ooh, that's a deep question. Um there were there were several different moments in my I would tell you honestly, as a girl that grew up with music, I've been singing my whole life, so music was um second nature. Um I grew up, my character grew. I grew up in leading this choir. Um, my character was built whilst leading this choir and figuring out because you kind of get into something that's community-based, you just want to give, you want everybody to be happy, and then you begin to meet the challenges that you didn't sign up for. You thought that this was going to be a happy space all of the time and everybody's happy. It does not work out that way, and you know, it really doesn't. And so I would tell you that there were many different glimmers and moments of heartbreak and growth, and heartbreak and growth, and then a bit of pruning, and then just growing up. And even though I was 28 when I started the choir, I could have been 28 going on 15, really, because I didn't have this experience. So my character grew over the last 20 years, and so there were many defining moments of self-growth, self-awareness, emotional maturity, understanding that you you are not everybody's cup of tea. You'll do the best you can, but you it may not be for everyone, and that's okay. That was hard, that was a hard lesson for me because I wanted everybody to be happy, and I couldn't understand why anybody would be unhappy with me. What did I do wrong? Nothing. But it took you took me years to learn that you know, people have their own lives, they're coming in with their own stuff, they'll project their own stuff. Everybody's filter is different, and so those were some of the growing pains of deciding to stay in it. Why am I here? Life could be so much easier if I wasn't doing this. I could start a little quartet or I could sing on my own. Life was easier when I sang on my own. But when you really sit and look at what you've built, all of the things that caused you pain caused you growth. And so it's worth staying for. So there were many defining moments. I couldn't pick out one, I could pick out several, but I suppose, you know, the thing is know your why. Why did I do it? I did it because somebody wanted to sing. So now I'm serving a community of people who want to sing, and then also sit with yourself and go, well, what's my why? Because your why to serve other people in a community will be different to what serves you in your growth. And so my why changed in the last maybe six years. A different avenue and a different door opened for me. I still get to do what I love in being a choir director, but now I'm kind of a liaison between many directors in Europe and in the US for gospel choir directors, and a door opened where I'm a good networker. I didn't know that. I'm a great connector, I didn't know that until a door opened, and now we're achieving things that had never been done before, which shocks me to say out loud, this had not been done before until I did it. So sometimes you grow into the office from where you started, you know, the acorn becomes the big tree. And how we pass it on, and how we pass on our knowledge. This podcast is a great example of that. How do we pass on the you can do it? You don't always have to go through the same routes everybody goes through to get to where I didn't go to college, I don't read music particularly well. Those are not the skills I have. That doesn't diminish what I have to offer. And again, that was another thing I had to sit with and accept and not feel like I have imposter syndrome when I walk into a room of directors that are to me phenomenal. I'm phenomenal too, just a little different, and it's okay. So I've learned a lot of lessons over the many years, and I've grown a lot through the choir. So the choir can teach you back if you have enough patience to sit with it as well, I think.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Wow, that's quite profound. That's that was that's quite something, Kira. I mean, you know, I've I've known you for quite a long time now, probably 10 years. 10 years. Um that's that's really exciting, and and I've seen you grow, and and I, you know, you're you're someone that's just lovely to be around. You've got this great charisma, you've got this lovely way about you, this crazy personality, and you also don't give, you know, you don't care what other people think either. You just you know, you're gonna do what you're gonna do, and you're gonna make things happen, and that's what I'm like too. We are, you know, we make things happen, we try and change people's lives, and we do it to the very best of our ability. And that I think speaks volumes. And I I I I'm what I'm also intr interested about is to find out how how do you get how did did you get people to believe in you at the beginning?

SPEAKER_01 18:09

I think that there was a gap that I I filled a gap. One person came to me because they heard me singing and they wanted to join that, so it kind of rippled out. There was a gap that people you know, spirituality is an interesting thing, and I suppose I have to talk about spirituality because gospel music is very spiritual, and whether you be there's so many different denominations of Christianity. We know that gospel music is about Jesus, um, and so there are plenty of people that sing in gospel choirs that don't believe in Jesus, they're not, you know, it's not faith-based necessarily, but they love the music and what it got, you know, what it gives to them. So I suppose the gap I was filling was people were trying to make a connection maybe in the church, but they didn't know how. Music is a way that they could do that. It also brought people back to the church because this was a different kind of choir. So it's about connecting, it's about listening to what people need. And I think for me, when I'm picking the songs that I choose to teach in all of the different seasons, I'm really closely listening to where I'm at at life. You know, I'm middle-aged lady now. I'm I'm and I'm gonna put it right on out there, and all the lady directors are gonna be like air fist the pump, you know, it's kind of like I'm Perry Menopausal. This is a brand new chapter. What are the songs that, in for want of a word, minister to me while I minister to others? Or as I'm, you know, working on myself, and then you know, the music is working on others, so it's it's constantly growing and evolving and filling a gap. What's the next gap? What are the next needs that people have? How am I listening to the music and the lyrics that's going to send out a message? And does it hit? When you do it, does it deliver? And you know, we did a coffee concert very recently and went. The director never gets to enjoy the crowd behind them, they get to enjoy us dancing. I always turn around, I want to see expressions, but I'm that's one of the things I said to my choir, let me know what you see because I cannot see what you see. But I do turn around to look at at people because gospel's like that. We can be very call and response. I get to turn around. And on one particular song that my friend Arik from uh Norway wrote is I just want to thank you. That those are the lyrics, and I turned around just to kind of encourage people in the audience to sing along because it's a little bit repetitive, and there were tears in their coffee cups, because with coffee cuts, and I thought, Well done, choir, well done for internalizing it, making your own, delivering it, because not every song is going to be no perfect. I don't ask my choirs for perfection, I do ask them for the very best thing. Give me excellence, give me your excellence, because that will hit, and it does every time. So, to kind of come back to your question, it's about finding the gap and filling the need within the community and then growing it and see where it might lead you, you know.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

I bet your your rehearsals are fun. Can you talk me, talk me through what your rehearsals are like?

SPEAKER_01 21:13

Well, you know, as I've now premised, I'm a parryman and puzzle woman. So when all of that chapter in my life opened up, I went into my choirs, and I I you must understand I have three choirs. I'm very blessed. I have the Ignite Gospel choir, and then because of that lockdown we went through six years ago, I have two contemporary choirs. Now that was a new journey for me. I never wanted to be teaching pop songs, rock songs, and all of the rest, but my passion was gospel. But I saw a gap in the community, and this is what I was able to do to serve them. So that was a new learning cover. But anyway, I went into all of the rehearsals at the beginning of a new term and I said, guys, I've got news for you. It's news for me, it's now news for you. If I have to go through it, you have to go through it. So let's just have an agreement from the offset. There are going to be times that come in here. I'm not in the mood. It's not your fault. It's not even my fault. So, I mean, watching all of the men in my choirs just not know which way to look, that brought the women great joy. The laughter of the fact that this chapter was happening. I'm a female director. So I started off that conversation. And when I go into rehearsal every week, specifically if there's something going on every week or on any particular week, I would premise the rehearsal with this is how I am. This is where my energy is. I had surgery a couple of months ago, so I'm working that recovery out. So my energy is a little bit different. So I'm going in and I'm saying, I love you guys, but tonight can we just get the work done so that we can go home? Because I'm not 100%. So the conversation is always very real. There are some very funny moments, you're not wrong. And I don't know about you, Russell, when you're teaching, if this happens to you, but you very innocently might be fixing a section in a song, and you might need the note to go in a certain direction. And that's fine. It might need the note, it might need to go down, the note might need to go up. In my case, I don't always think ahead. I'm just teaching. I'm in the moment. We're doing a great job. And you know, I need to be very PC about how I word this, but I might have to tell them on a certain song that the note needs to go in a certain direction on a sudden word. And I will do that. But what they heard me say is not the direction of where the note was supposed to go on whatever word on that sentence, and the belly laughter that comes out, and I'm like looking going, what did what did I say? And then and then I sit with what did I just say, and now I understand why they're laughing. So there is huge belly laughs that happen accidentally because I'm kind of a funny girl, accidentally, but it just adds to the atmosphere of a rehearsal, and we run with it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

Do you know? I had I had this I had this rehearsal last night. Um, you know, and it does happen frequently, and it's those moments of I'm talking away, I'm in my zone, I'm explaining something, and you say something in a certain way, and it just tickles someone, and then they start laughing, and then you think, What have I said? And then they and then you have that moment of realization what you said in a certain way.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

It can be a little bit naughty.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

I know and often is, and and you have it's not how you meant it, but it but it's just how it's been taken and it's perceived, and it creates it.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

And there's one, there's definitely one song, and I'm not gonna tell you, I won't tell you now, I'll tell you when I see you in October because it's so funny. But I was teaching uh Get Here by Olita Adams, and there's a line in there, and I just the note needed to go in a certain direction. Um word they caught me, and we laugh about it every time we sing the song now, you know.

Concerts, Flash Mobs And Community

SPEAKER_00 24:47

But yeah, they create great moments, and they create great moments for the choir and and happiness and laughter, and you're making music, and these are all the these are all the things that you need in a rehearsal. It is the magic, it is the magic. What are your what are your what are your productions like? What are your concerts like? How do you normally perform? Where do you normally perform? What makes you different? Because you are pretty different, I think, in your approach. Um what are your what are your performances like?

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Uh well, you know, uh depends on the colour of my hair. Um those that know me, my hair can be vibrant pink to you know, more subtle magenta.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

I wouldn't know.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

Yeah, no, you wouldn't. Um concerts present themselves. Look, I I love to take opportunities where they organically grow. Yeah, you're going to do your summer concert, your Christmas concert. Those are kind of staples in the community. And what I I have done for the last couple of years, because I'm not a spring chicken anymore, um, I amalgamate all three of my choirs at Christmas time. And we do the big choir Christmas concert. That's over 120 people doing all the Christmas music. And we'll we will go out, we have a Christmas market, uh, several of them. So I'll bring out maybe 30 or 40. We shake the buckets, we'll do all of that and raise money for charities. I think every opportunity that presents itself to flash mob something, all of the, I mean, one of my choirs see we rehearse out of a hotel that's right on the promenade by Galway Bay. So on a Monday evening, we all agree, we look at the weather, the weather's good out. We go straight out to the prom, and there are lots of different types of shelters. So if the rain comes down, which it does often and regular, we just we sing out of one of those shelters, which are quite big, um, but the resonance of the sound out of them is phenomenal. So, you know, we just impromptu do our rehearsal in the shelter, but just sing through songs, and the community are walking by to, you know, it's a beach day for some people, whatever the case. So those are the smaller things we do impromptu. There are always races, people are out running, there's always charity events, we do the charity balls, we do the you know, the awards that happen. I always I'm fondly known and I'm very proud to be fondly known as the choir lady in my city. So I'll get the call and I'll well, what do you want? You want gospel, do you want contemporary? Tell them tell me about it. And then, you know, the gospel choir will do uh we're doing one next week, actually, an evening of prayer through song. And it's ecumenical. So we'll just bring people in. We're in the season of Lent right now in the church, so we're we're working our way up to Easter. So that's something that's a little bit different. And then we travel, we will go to festivals, we will support our friends in the UK and go and bring our peoples and sing together. Um, and the gospel choir will travel to the music and arts festival with Donald Lawrence. We were in Sweden um last May, we'll be in Oslo next May. Um, and we've been to Barcelona, we've traveled around a lot. So there's there's so much you can do in traveling with your singing, festivals, concerts, just go out into the street and start singing. Yeah, you know, you don't need an occasion, just do something. Show up, have a picnic in a park, start singing. And they love it.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

And it's interesting because I I you know we we met for the first time at my festival at the UK Choir Festival, which is now the World Voices Festival, as we've we've grown too. And and it's amazing watching you and your choirs how they've grown in the last 10 years, and of course, and you're you know, you're you're coming back this year to the f to the festival, so it's almost like we're gonna see a 10-year change from Kira, and we're gonna see a 10-year change from the choir. That's pretty exciting.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

And it's an amalgamation that I'm bringing with me. So you're getting and you know what I'm very proud of? If I'm proud of anything, musically, yes. Growing up, yes, creating community, yes. It's how much my choirs like each other. They don't see each other all the time until I bring them together in a room. And just watching people go, oh, how you doing? And some of them have exchanged numbers, they meet for coffee. I'm proud of that. We've given people a social outlet that maybe they didn't have, that's so important for their mental health, for their happiness, for just the bit of life that they'll do through choir. You know, it's a big deal for them. So I'm proud of I can travel with my three choirs and off we go, and we'll have a great time.

Upskilling Without Sheet Music

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Now you've I I what I'm also interested in is in the challenges that you have faced, because as as you mentioned, you know, you didn't train academically in music or into, you know, reading, writing, composing, arranging, yet you have made a life out of doing those things, being in the music industry and creating amazing music through your co through your choirs. What are the biggest challenges you've faced and how have you overcome them?

Networking, Generosity And Collaboration

SPEAKER_01 29:46

I suppose the first ten years I was on my own in my bubble with Ignite, because that was the choir that I had at the time. The first ten years on my own with a piano and whatever skill God gave me to hear harmonies and songs, I can do that. I can pull out a three-part harmony, and it will be the authentic Kira version of the song, because without having the dots to have it exactly right, I'm gonna do the best that I can with what I have. After we turned 10, um, there were some changes that came in in the choir, and I set a standard and I put down some boundaries, and there were just some things that changed. I was challenged, challenged to the point where I stay or I go. It was one of those moments. Um, I didn't want to stay the way we were, and I needed to progress with people who wanted to grow with me. And so, you know, encouraging home practice of lines, and practice happens at home, and rehearsal is where we put the practice together, um, and resources, creating resources for them to be able to do that practice at home and creating line tapes and all of that. Um, but I also wanted to challenge myself to be singing songs in the way the composer wrote them to be sung. And in some cases, it took me reaching out, now bursting the bubble after 10 years, reaching out to the composer and saying, Hi, this is who I am, I know nothing. And I need help and asking for help. And so this is something that I'm passionate about in terms of you know talking about other directors, because if you're like me and you're working off all of the gift that you have inside you, that's amazing. That's amazing on its own. But if you want to grow um a little bit more and be more challenged, reaching out to other directors for help to upskill, to learn how to teach the harmonies properly, you know, in an auditory kind of a way, because again, we're not using sheet music. So, for example, I reach out to my friend Isaac Cates in Kansas, he's very well known in the choral world and very well known in the gospel world. And he's a great friend of mine. I love him very, very much. And he's been here in Galway with me and we've met many times. But I reached out and I said, I like the song, because I will be listening to gospel all the time, and you know, just reach out and say, Would you by chance have the parts separately, you know, recorded so I can hear just the soprano line and a tongue, the alto line and a tongue. Because as a director going in to teach my I have to be super prepared. I need to know all four parts to teach all four parts without sheet music. So I want to be very prepared. So that's a challenge I set for myself, and I reached out to many uh composers to still have their work, and sometimes it's available, and sometimes it really isn't, and sometimes they will be kind enough to say, I don't have that, but I'm going to do that for you. Just give me a little time. And what's even more beautiful is they're investing in you out of love. They're not charging you. Sometimes you have to pay for these things, and that's perfectly right because we're investing in artists we love, but it's just that sense of community and investing back into smaller community choirs. I love, I really love, deeply love that people are that generous because not all choirs have money, some choirs have no money. There isn't money in choirs sometimes, so that generosity and not being of don't be afraid of the no. You're going to be told no a couple of times, that's okay. So for me, it was reaching out to upskill and to look for help and support. And you know, my friends Carmel and Lisa here in Ireland, you know, are two ladies that supported me in amazing ways, but you have to burst the bubble out of your little world to want to expand, you know, and so that was a massive big step for me. And in fact, actually, that would have happened just shortly after I met you for the first time 10 years ago. We met in 2016, and it was about 2018 when that change really came in for me, you know. So asking for help and just you know, growing that way.

SPEAKER_00 34:03

And I I you know there are some amazing, amazing people around, you know, that not I I think I think whenever you're leading anything, and I've spoken about this before, it it often feels very lonely. And as you said right at the beginning, you're on your own, you know. And to some degree, even with the amazing people I surround myself with and that I I meet along the way, and you're always meeting new people, and it's a wonderful world out there, and it's an exciting world out there, and nothing nothing ever becomes dull in this world. No, not for me anyway, because I I'm always meeting new people with amazing talents and and are inspiring, including yourself, and and there is generosity as well, and there is respect. There are some who are just not interested, they're just they are wrapped up in their own minds.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

And we wish them well.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

And that's fine. But I think I think generosity speaks volumes because it does some of the nicest people out there are also the most successful people out there, and they're successful for a reason.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

Yeah, and I think it's important to where you know we're in the business a really long time. Maybe if if somebody is listening that are newish in it and wanting to reach out but don't know where to start, there's always kind of a I mean, I'm sure you have a base of networks. We're both of us are very good networkers in our field now. Um, people would reach out to me, for example, choir uh gospel choir directors, and say, Would you know such and such, or somebody who could, um, or maybe they they want to travel somewhere, can I connect in with the choir? Just taking five, ten, it doesn't take a lot of time or energy to find an email address or make an introduction, or maybe the song is already in your repertoire from five years ago. It really is no skin off your nose to say, There you go, there's the file, have a great time. Let me know how you get on with that.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

It's a compliment to be asked. That's the thing is a compliment, and it I I love helping people. I love being able to provide a resource for somebody or advising them on something, and because it makes me feel good that I'm trying to help someone else. Because ultimately, this this community that we're in um is very united. We are sharing the same thing, we're doing things in our own way. It's a big world out there, there's plenty of space for everybody to do their thing, and helping each other creates a wonderful community of support, and we all need it. No matter how successful we are, we still need the support and the help.

SPEAKER_01 36:34

And I think I think there's a serious balance that needs to be understood where generosity, you know, it's kind of the give and take. Try to support artists as well. You know, for example, Craig Lee's great friend of both of ours, and he's going to be here with me in two weeks' time to do almost a week's worth of one-on-ones and then workshops with my choirs. Um, you know, and investing back in into my friends and paying them to do the amazing work they do. And like that, there are songs. Then I might say, Craig, I like the way your choir sounds and that any chance you'd like to throw, you know, and there's that beautiful friendship and relationship. And I will say, one of the things that I think is really good for choir directors to consider, now that I've just mentioned Craig, sometimes it's really good to invite a director in to take a rehearsal. You take a rest, watch what you can learn from another director's skills, but it also gives your choir the opportunity to appreciate the amount of work that you do when they see other directors coming in. So I would I would definitely encourage other directors to, you know, spread your wings a little, make some friends. Not everybody's for you. Remember, not every director's your cup of tea. You will find the right ones for you, and it would be beautiful. You might do collaborations, you might be able to get together, do concerts. So that connection between directors, I think it's really good for the soul, you know, because only directors understand how directors feel after a long day, you know.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

And I think some people feel that they will be undermined if they bring somebody in, oh, they might be better than me, you know. Oh, I can't have that going on. But it it for me it's never worked like that because I should rephrase that because it makes me sound like, well, I'm the best, so therefore everyone's gonna undermine me. I don't mean that at all. But what I mean is when we collaborate, we learn so much from each other. Yes, we learn from listening, we won, we we learn from watching, we learn from talking to people, and it's not about hierarchy, it's about working together and learning. And some of the best projects that I have ever done have been collaborations with other choir directors, some way more experienced than me, some much less experienced than me, but it doesn't matter because we're doing it together, we are collaborating and learning, and that is a wonderful thing.

Closing Thanks And Listener Request

SPEAKER_01 38:52

And I would say that even if you do feel insecure and you you know, there are look at it's competitive sometimes. Um, let the competition be yourself, your growth. You know, self-awareness. Again, I told you I grew up whilst growing my choir. So was I ever jealous watching other choirs? Yes, I was because I felt unworthy or I wasn't good enough. And you have the self-imposeure syndrome that does kick in. Um, what I would say is be gentle with yourself, turn your way of thinking around, be careful of the words that you speak around yourself, and instead of being jealous or feeling not good enough, be inspired. And you know, if if some like there's a lady in in Copenhagen who's become such a great friend, her name is Katrina, and her choir is the Love Revolution choir, gospel choir in Copenhagen. And Katrina and I have become very close, but before I knew her, I followed her choir on social media, and the little green, you know, monster would pop up every now and again, going, How are they so good? And how is it I can't get that sound? And stop comparing yourself and your choir to other directors and other choirs. What you do is uniquely yours. It doesn't mean you can't grow and change, just change maybe your attitude towards your own growth and be content with what you have and allow it to grow organically. Don't try to be somebody else. Be yourself. But if you find yourself feeling challenged in your insecurity, if you are bringing in another director to teach your choir, let it go. Be inspired and just grow through it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

Well, it's been it's been amazing talking with you today, Kira. And and uh, you know, I can't thank you enough for your own generosity for spending some time with me today and telling me about your life and uh all the amazing work you're doing. I wish you all the very best, and you know, we must keep in touch. Of course, I will see you in a few months' time anyway, and I look forward to watching your continued success.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

Thank you, Russell.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

Wow, what a great interview. The lovely Kira Sheeran, all the way from Galway and Ireland. That was a really, really interesting interview, and she's so passionate, and her words are so heartfelt. It really, really is inspiring to listen to. Like it, subscribe to it, download it, and please, please, please review it because it will help us get to more choir directors, which in turn will help more choir directors and their choirs get the very, very best experiences they can from this wonderful choral world we work in. Until next time, thank you very much for listening.