Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Welcome back to the choir director podcast, the essential resource for choir directors, conductors, and vocal leaders who want to build stronger choirs, run better rehearsals, and create outstanding musical experiences. Well, thanks again for tuning in to the new show. We're now into episode six, and we've had some fantastic responses so far. Thank you so much. And if you are new to this podcast, a warm welcome and thank you for joining us today. And if you've been listening over the last few weeks, a huge thank you to you for downloading and listening, for liking, for subscribing, and of leaving the reviews that we're starting to receive in, which have been really, really positive. Thank you so much for that. We're helping many more people get to know about what we're doing and learn from the great people we're talking to in our guest spot. Well, today we are joined by Abby Gilchrist, the founder and director of UK Soul Choirs. Abby built soul choirs for a tiny group of singers in Greenwich into a network of choirs across London and Kent, helping literally hundreds of adults find their voice through soul and pop harmony singing with no auditions and no music reading required. In this episode, we're talking about how to run an inclusive rehearsal that still sounds great, how to teach harmony quickly to non-readers, and what it takes to grow a community choir without losing the warmth that made it special. Welcome Abby Gilchrist. Thank you so much for joining me this afternoon. I just wanted to start this by saying, you know, you do some amazing work and you've got these fantastic, fantastic choirs. But tell me a little bit about the background of Abby. Tell me a little bit about you and how you kind of got into music.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Okay, hello. Uh lovely to be here. Um, yes, the background of me. Okay, so um, well, interestingly, I started singing in a choir when I was about five or six. My best friend in primary school, Jo, Joanna, she uh she said, I'm gonna join a church choir around the corner from where we both lived. And um, and I thought, well, I'll do that with you because I don't know what that is. And I was literally five or six. So I joined the church choir, a very small little church, um, Church of England choir, that had a rehearsal on a Thursday evening, and then you'd had to do the service on a Sunday morning. Now, my family are um Jewish um atheist, so that's quite interesting. And my mum and dad were a bit like, you're gonna join the church choir. Yes, I'm gonna join the church choir. Okay, so we did that, and um she left, my friend left after a year or something, but of course I was hooked at that point. Um, and so I I sang with that choir from age five or six through to when I left to go to Guildhall when I was 18. Um, and in that time I was um ended up being the uh Southwark Cathedral um chorister, uh head chorister, you name it, you name it, I did it. And I absolutely loved it. Um, not that I'm religious at all, but I absolutely loved it, and I think that was really how I found the love, well, it's completely how I found the love of choirs, and um, and then I went to Guildhall and um did a classical music singing degree. Uh, and then I went to musical theatre college, um, and I finished my degree at Goldsmiths, so I did singing at Goldsmiths as well, and I did lots of choir stuff there. And then I went to London School of Musical Theatre and did um musicals for a year, studied to be a musicals theatre singer, and now I do everything. And now I've been full circle and I basically do everything but do choir.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

So a bit like a bit like me, actually. You've you've you've got this crossover between classical and musical theatre, which was a bit of a it was frowned upon for for a long time. A lot of people say, well, if you do classical, you can't see musical theatre. If you're musical theatre, well you can't possibly be classical. But actually I trained classically as well and into musical theatre and did the crossover uh pretty successfully. Uh and it's it's it just shows that it can be done and lots of people are doing it. But do you think it plays a part in choral singing? Because if you're classically trained to s to choral sing, we sing in a slightly different way, obviously, with with musical theatre.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Yeah, it is it is different, and now I teach musical theatre, so I've I've again I I didn't end up doing musical theatre as my kind of career because I've ended up doing a lot more pop and jazz um as my own singing. Um, and now I've gone again full circle because now I sing in a professional choir, and that's really quite classical most of the time, actually, um, or straight singing because I do a lot of film scores, um, which is which you have to basically just be completely straight and just be a sound. Um, so I've had to sort of rejig myself, I've had to reinvent my own singing so many times, and I think that that has played into choir singing and how much and what I teach when I'm teaching choir, because I think stylistically you have to be so versatile when you're what no matter what you're singing, but definitely in a choir environment. Um, and definitely for me, the class in learning to sing some element of a classical technique and classical style is absolutely just um a brilliant foundation for any kind of singing, and it really does help. Unfortunately, now musical theatre has really swung to a much more pop-centric sound. Um, even the sort of legit musicals, you know, the old-fashioned musicals that are having a great resurgence in the West End, even they want a more poppy sound, even though they're old-fashioned style. Um, so that's quite tricky, and I think that people who have had come from a classical background think, oh, I'm going to go and be in musical theatre and I'm going to sing in those legit, wonderful, legit musicals, are quite shocked when actually they want you to bring a pop song to the audition. Um, and that's what I find quite a lot now. So I think with choirs, I'm very aware that we have to constantly be evolving how we sing and our technique, depending on what style we're trying to do. And it's wonderful to sing an array of things. And that's what's so lovely about choirs, isn't it? That you can just dip into so many different styles and just do it all within the same concert. How exciting is that?

SPEAKER_01 6:27

And I think a lot of people that are coming from choral societies and a and a choral background that come to a more pop environment suddenly realize that they can do something, they can do this thing that they thought was very difficult. You can't, you know, you can't sing it in the same style as you know, you can't sing Madonna in the same style you would as Monte Verdi picking two M's. But but you know, but you can apply the same techniques of of how you learnt. You know, when you learn open vowels and you learn the production of of how to produce that classical sound, it's applicable to all genres.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

It really is. And um, do you know I've got I've got a uh a wonderful person, um woman in my choir who's been in for many, many years, and she's French and comes from a very actually was quite successful as a classical singer in France and was came in with quite an operatic sounding voice, but she really wanted to be do the pop stuff because she loves it, she's super, she loves dancing, she's really kind of cool and loves loves being part of a party vibe. Um, and it just really took her quite some time. But the last last term she did a solo, and it was really the first time she must have been quiet now, I don't know, eight years or something. It must have been the first time I really thought, wow, you have completely now made this switch to be able to sing in a completely different style, but still to be able to sing in her classical style if she wants to, because I've I've recently heard her sing that as well, and it just opens up this ability to do to do both. And I I always say to people, how wonderful to be flexible and just to be able to do a bit of everything. And yeah, the classical stuff does definitely help you in just in how to learn. And people come to my to my choirs and they sort of say, and I say, Oh, are you a soprano? Where do you want to sit? You're in a soprano, out, typically the and and actually with the same with the with the male voice as well. Are you a tenor? Oh no, I'm not that high, I'm not that high, I'm not a soprano, I'm not a tenor. And I always say, hang on, in a pop choir, you're not gonna be having to hit those top A's, you know, you're not anywhere near those top A's, you know. So give it a go because if you've got a slightly higher voice, I think you'll be fine. And so that in that's really lovely for people, and they realise they've got more to give.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

I also think that nerves plays a big part when you go for a taster in a choir, you know, they're always very nervous. So they they'll they'll always say, No, I'm a low, I I sing low, I sing low, because then they're scared of singing out. So I always say, you know what, why don't you try the top and work downwards? Push people out of their comfort zone because they want to be able to sing out, you know.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Yeah, what a great idea. Because actually, and I often say to people, but they oh you're right, they think that singing low is more comfortable, but I I'm always sort of mentioning to people gradually, and and as they get more confident, that actually wherever your voice sits, if your voice doesn't sit low, then singing low is not more comfortable. For me, singing alto, and I do sometimes have to sing alto one now. Um in the pro choir, sometimes they'll put me on alto one because I am I am now SOP two, and I'll be sometimes they'll be like, Can you do alto one? And it is exhausting for me because I'm not an alto. I'm not, I'm not alto one, even on the best of, you know, I I've got the chess voice, but I just, you know, singing out of your actually out of your natural range is more uncomfortable than singing in your range.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

And actually not not vocally particularly healthy for you, you know, to be because you're you're more likely to strain if you're out of your out of your normal register. I always say to people when they say, I'm not sure where to sing, I don't know what voice part I am, you sing where you're comfortable. Where's your speaking voice for a start? And that's a very good gauge, as you say. And then you you look at you look at the sound of the voice because there's nothing worse than singing either too high where you're straining or too low when you're straining. Singing low, straining all the time, it's really damaging.

Finding Range Confidence And Style

SPEAKER_00 10:16

Really damaging, exactly. And and all of these lovely women who come and sing alto, and I think you're not an alto. But you know, it but they generally well, they will find their way in the end. But I think you're right, it's the nerves that make people think that singing low lower is more comfortable. So that's a good thing to take away.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

So, what what was the exact moment you knew you wanted to start UK Soul Choirs? And what problem were you trying to solve?

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Yeah, there's always a problem, isn't there?

SPEAKER_01 10:48

There's always a reason why we do these things. We see a gap.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

And there was, yeah, there was a gap. So I had joined a choir, I was I was singing professional and oppression professionally, and I had joined a choir because I just missed singing with other people because you know, I was always just me with a band, me with you know, an ensemble, me solo, whatever it was. Um, and I just missed I missed singing in harmony, I missed singing with other people, and so I joined a just a choir. They were kind of semi-pro, did some pro stuff, some some some, you know, it was a mixed bag. Um, and I was living in South London, they were across the river, and the problem be and I loved it, I had a great time, but the problem was, as you say, um they decided to the night of my choir rehearsal, they decided to close the Blackmore Tunnel. So I so I couldn't get to my choir anymore.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

What a brilliant reason to start a choir. The Blackpool tunnel's closed.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

I can't get to my choir because it was in Stratford and I couldn't get there. Um, so I was like, Well, I'm gonna so I stopped and I thought, well, that's I'm just really sad because I haven't got choir anymore. So I said to my husband, I'm just I think I'm just gonna start a choir. And he was like, Well, that's a ridiculous idea. Why would on earth are you gonna start choir? I said, Well, because I just miss choir. And I think I know I've done lots of choirs, I've had lots of experience of choirs. I'm sure I can do something. And he said, Well, he said, I'm not gonna help you. And he's a uh a professional pianist and arranger and producer, and he said, I haven't got time, I haven't got time to help you. You're gonna have to, if you want to do this, you're gonna have to do this. And I said, Okay, fine, fine, fine, of course, I can do it on my own, no problems, she says. Um, and I had a friend who had done some choir stuff, and he said, Look, I'll give you a couple of arrangements to start you off because I just thought I don't know how to arrange, I haven't really done anything like that before. Um, but I think I can do the choir bit, and um, so I did my first night, and I had four people on my first night above a pub in Elton in Greenwich, which is kind of where we were living, near where we were living at the time. Um, and we sang in four-part harmony, which with our four people, which they still remind me of now. I've got three of them in choir still. Oh, that's lovely. So um, and they always laugh that we we did yeah, four-part harmony on a we all four people. Um, and then from there that that was it, really. And I gradually sort of started doing my own um arrangements and thinking, oh, you know, I really want to do that song. I couldn't find arrangement, I'll just do it myself. I used to do it with like literally dictaphone style, me playing the piano, singing it. Oh, I oh hang on a minute, and I'd literally on the recording, oh sorry, and then just go back and do it again. I mean, it was terrible when I think about it. Really, yeah, really bad. But um, those people stuck with me, God bless them. They must have liked something. And uh, and then and then that's where and that's where it started, yeah. And it grew.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

And it grew. And now you have 18 choirs?

SPEAKER_00 13:50

18 branches, 750 people. Wow.

Starting UK Soul Choirs

SPEAKER_01 13:54

And how have you how have you grown that? How is that how has that actually worked? And how difficult was it? That's got a second question. How difficult was it to find choir leaders to run them? Because obviously you can't be in 18 choirs a week.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

No, and I would say that finding leaders is my biggest difficulty, my my biggest challenge. Um, you know, being a choir leader, the more I do it, now this is my 16th year of running choir, the more I do it, the more I realise what a skill it is. What a skill it is, and anybody who does it, I have huge respect and admiration for you because it, you know, it you are you have to be so many different things. You have to have wear so many hats. Um, yeah, I grew it because um we moved house, and so the ones I had already in London were going well, and I thought, well, I I moved to a I moved down to Kent, and I thought, well, we can just start one in Kent. Um, started one in a lunchtime in Kent, which was today actually, and now it's on a Friday lunchtime. So I started that. Uh we've been here 10 years, so I think I did it nine years ago, and um started with actually started at 20 people, that was quite good. Now that choir has 70 people every Friday lunchtime. Wow, that's amazing! That choir is crazy, it's so busy, they're lovely, they just love it. And because there's a lot of people where we live that work from home, don't work on Fridays because there's a lot of people that commute in the week. So it works really, really well. It doesn't work everywhere. I've I've tried other lunchtime choirs that haven't been so successful, but this one really has stuck brilliantly. Um, and then we've just gradually, you know, I've kind of found people, I've heard about people. Generally, now my thing is I have to have the person before I open the choir, the leader before I have open the choir, because I have done it the other way around, and it has been so difficult to find the right leader when the choir is already established. So yeah, I generally now I have a leader in mind, even if I'm not starting with that leader, I have a leader in mind before I open the choir. Um, yeah, just because it it is all about the leader. It's all about the leader. They have to be they have to be someone that people want to go and spend time with every week.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

Well, you have to be inspired by the leader, that's the thing. They have to know their stuff. Of course, you take the ability for granted. If you're a choir leader, you should know what you're doing, obviously. And you should be trained to do what you're doing. But you but but you've got to be able to inspire people.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

You've got to be able to inspire people, and you just have to be, you have to be fun. You have to be fun. And I think that some musicians with with the best will in the world don't understand the fun part. They can do the brilliant playing the piano, playing, you know, teaching the parts, doing all of the stuff, but they don't have that little element, the magic, as I always say, the magic of just bringing the fun, bringing the enjoyment and realizing that those people are choosing to come to, you know, come to your choir over all these other choirs, over all these other activities that they could be doing in the on a Tuesday night, Wednesday night, whatever it may be, you know, they are choosing to come to you, not really because of the singing, you know, they're coming for the fun, they're coming for the enjoyment of the activity and how they feel at the end of it. So even if you're not the best at teaching the parts, if you're giving them a wonderful experience, they're gonna come back.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

And what is it, what is it that attracts people in the first instance? What are you? I mean, what are you yeah, what are you what are you saying in your marketing that is that is appealing? And obviously you're delivering. I mean, you you know, you wouldn't you you wouldn't have the success that you have with the amount of members and the amount of choirs if it wasn't working and you weren't doing as you as you promised you would. So what are you using in your marketing to bring in people and making them realize that your choir is a really an amazing place to be?

SPEAKER_00 17:49

Um, I think our sort of USP has become our arrangements, definitely. Our arrangements are all done in-house, so we don't ever use anybody else's arrangement. Um, they are, I think, a cut above um most other stuff that you see around. Um, we really do, we work really, really hard on them. Um, I think we've found a really good formula for them. Ross is amazing. So, my husband Ross is amazing at harmony and creating the tracks. He makes these amazing tracks. Uh, I'm very good at the vocal lines and how singers sing nicely, how it feels to sing nicely. So the two things together just work really, really well. And I think that those arrangements have are definitely why people stay. Um, that I get told that all the time. And also, I think um we are just about fun. We are about fun, we're about a social life. We're not like fully about there's other choirs that do more, but I think we make it very much like this is part of what we do. We go on holiday, we have social lots of social events, we really promote people going and hanging out and becoming friends. Um, it isn't just about the singing. I always say the singing is kind of well, singing is just the beginning, is our strap line, and that is what I really do think has has become the case. You know, someone said to me, You come for the singing and you stay for the friendship, and I think that is definitely um why why we've been successful.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

That's lovely. That's a really nice line, that actually. And we, you know, we choir has the power to change lives. I mean, it's there's no question about that. It really does change people's lives, and it gets people over all sorts of emotional and physical and physiological difficulties that they're experiencing in their lives. It's an amazing thing. We all know the benefits of singing, we don't have to, you know, sort of preach about that today. But why going back onto your arrangements? What made you choose to do your own arrangements? Was it a a cost um implication of having to buy copies of music? Was it a case of having control over the music? What was it that made you decide to write your own arrangements rather than because there are obviously amazing arrangements out there as well. What made you decide to do it?

Growing Leaders Culture And Marketing

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Um primarily we so we don't ever give music out, so everything is learned orally for our through our choirs, and that is out of a choice that we made right at the beginning and that we very firmly stick to, and that is because we want everyone to be on the same playing field, um, sort of ability experience-wise. I didn't want anyone to feel like they were coming and they were being given music and they didn't know what they were looking at, and then they'd be standing next to someone who's been reading music for 20 years. I didn't want that to be a barrier to anybody coming, so we've always said we will always learn everything um orally, you know, by rote. So that was that was one of the reasons that we we were never going to get music that we were gonna give out, so we didn't need to have copies in that way. Um, and I think just because of the kind of music we wanted to do, you know, I really wanted it to be soul-infused. I I don't say it's all soul music because it's not, but it's soul-infused music. Um, there was it was really hard to find good arrangements of the kind of songs. You know, I like to be really up to date with doing the brand new Bruno Mars song at the moment, which hasn't even come out yet. I think it's come out today, actually. So like we've we've already arranged that. That's out, we're doing it this week. Um, you know, it just allows us to be much more organic and kind of up to trends and do what we want to do. And also, I love doing mashups. That's become our kind of USP. We do all these mashups of different songs. Um, and again, that's just something that we do because it's become our our kind of signature, really, of choir.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Um how time is it how time consuming is it to to write these write these arrangements?

SPEAKER_00 21:46

Yeah, quite quite quite time consuming. Uh and often may result in divorce also.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

Um glad I'm not the only one that has that problem.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

Yeah, you know, it's it's it's um It's pretty, it's pretty hardgoing. We have found a way of doing it now that works for us. And we have to set aside a good, you know, a good amount. It probably takes a day to do one, realistically. So, you know, we're and we're doing we have a really good formula for each term now that we do two brand new songs, two old catalogue songs, two songs from the past term, so two songs that we've carried forward, and then we always have um like an encore song that usually carries through each term so everybody knows it. So that's our formula. So we're actually only doing each term two brand new songs, so yeah, so that's not as much to do, but it's still, you know, still it is still a lot of work, you know. And thinking about what song we're gonna do and creating the mashup and all of that stuff is you know, that's I've got a massive list on my phone of songs.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

And are are all 18 choirs all all doing the same songs at the same time?

SPEAKER_00 22:55

Yeah, exactly that. The whole point of that is so that if you are someone who lives in Kent and you happen to be working in London, you can go to the London choir, you can pop in wherever you want to pop in. So everyone is basically learning around the same part of the song at the same time. Of course, there's going to be a little bit of a fluctuation depending on how quick people get through through things, but yeah, that's the plan. So all the leaders have a um a sort of understanding of what they're supposed to be doing every week vaguely, and they all do the same.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

So let's get into the more gritty stuff of rehearsals. Um and talk about your rehearsal style. Now, obviously, all your leaders will have their own ways of doing things and their, you know, their their own styles and their own interpretations of the music and etc. etc. But how does your how does your how do your rehearsals work and how much time do you spend on things like technique or warm-ups or something more physical? How important is that to the rehearsal and how do you approach it?

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Um, so we have we have a kind of um a set of um plan a plan of how much of what we ask everybody to do. So it should should be that you get the same sort of experience wherever you are in any of our rehearsals, um, which comes from me. Um so it's a 15-minute warm-up, and that will be a body warm-up first, then some kind of vocal, something involving technique of some description, so that hopefully you're learning something. I always do some breathing because I'm very obsessed with breathing. So I will always do a bit of breathing, I'll always do something about stretching the vocal folds, I will always do some kind of sirening, um, and then I'll do something, and then then at the end of the sort of little bit of vocal, little body, little bit of vocal. Um, we always do a warm-up song or you know, piece of whatever it may be. So it could be like it's a rhythm exercise, it could be that it's a little song, it's a little round, it can be anything. Um, and we change that up, and that that I do leave to the leaders. So they've got like a bank of repertoire they can use, or they can use their own ones. Often they're finding things on Insta or something, they'll see a great little thing. You know, there's some wonderful leaders out there that are always putting up real cool little things. So people are trying things and sending, we have a lovely little warm-up group, WhatsApp group with our leaders, and they're saying, This is good. I tried this this week, this worked really well. You know, so it's we just try and keep that interesting and organic, really, and then we move on to the learning. So you get a good 15-20 minutes of warm-up, and I always say everybody, it you know, to all our members, there is a reason you do these warm-up, it's not just for me, you know, because I know some of them come a bit late because I want to miss the warm-up, and I'm like, don't miss the warm-up, come and do the warm-up. The warm-up is part of how you grow as a singer, you know, that's your little bit of private one-to-one singing lesson that you're getting as part of your£10 a week. It's amazing. Um, and and you're all the leaders have their own sort of way of doing stuff, but yeah, I always incorporate that.

Writing Arrangements And Teaching By Ear

SPEAKER_01 25:54

How do you how do you maintain quality control with 18 choirs?

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Well, uh, choose really, really good leaders, number one. Um, leaders that I really trust and I do. We have um it's a training day at least once, usually twice a year. We have a training when all the leaders come together and we just we call it training, but it's everybody's doing stuff together, and we're kind of like, you know, sharing ideas, and everybody will teach a bit, and we're all sort of say what we loved about it, what we think could be improved about it. Um, that's really lovely. I love doing that. I always get lots of really great ideas from my leaders. Um yeah, and and we're always sending around sort of things. I'm always sort of saying, Can we do this? I always take, I have surveys I send out to choir from time to time saying, What do you love about choir? What would you like more of, what would you like less of? So I'm always talking to the membership as well. I think it's really difficult. One of the things I'm I have found as we've grown is is the difficulty of not being so personally attached to a lot of them because obviously I've always before I knew everybody, I knew everybody, everybody knew me. Now I don't know them all, and I sometimes I go to a rehearsal or I go to a concert and I rock up and they don't even know who I am, and um, and which is really weird. And I'm like, and then but the older people be like, Happy's here, you know, which is really nice.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

Do you walk in the door and say, Do you know who I am?

SPEAKER_00 27:23

I don't know. I'm always a bit on but usually they know me because I do because I do uh I do the weekly recorded um rehearsal that everyone can watch, so they do vaguely know me, and they hear my voice because I record all of the um soprano parts, so they they know my voice, but um they don't necessarily know me as a person, and that's quite tricky. So I have to really rely on my leaders to be me in all of those places and to have the the connections and the relationships with people so that they feel included and loved in their choir? Um luckily it's all good now.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

Uh without going into too much detail, um the you mentioned£10 a week, roughly speaking, for for membership. How does uh a choir like UK Soul Choirs or any choir that's got multiple choirs going on, how do you work out the best price point to give absolute value for money whilst obviously covering costs and obviously making money for the choir? Because obviously you want to survive, um, and it is you know it is commercial uh and you do have lots of expenses and your own salaries and life, and you know, you've got to pay people, and there's a lot of costs that go in that are involved in it. But how do you how do you find that price point?

SPEAKER_00 28:39

Um, I think we we very much look at other choirs, we compare with a lot of the other big choirs, particularly. Um you can't you can't compare yourself to one sort of solo single choir leader with a choir of 20 people in a little village hall. You just can't. We are never going to be able to compete with that. Um, and I get messages. Why are you so expensive? Um, you know, oh, I can do choir for free if I go here. And I always say, brilliant, okay. Well that do that. If that is the most important thing for you, then that's that's fine. I'm not trying to compete with those choirs. Um, so yeah, we just try and keep it competitive with with other choirs that are doing similar things. We give lots of options of different memberships so you can pay yearly, you get the cheapest rate, you know, and it sort of comes down. You we we want people to be committed, we want people to be in for the long term, so we give them a lot better deals if they if they sort of are more committed for a year, etc. Um, I think and we we get a lot of messages actually saying I think it is really good value for money. We do a lot of the the back end of our website is really amazing. Um, we've spent a lot of money, spent a lot of time on it. They they all have their own personal login and they get absolutely everything, sort of materials-wise, to to do. They can download everything, everything can use on a lovely little thing on their phone so they can listen in the car. You know, there's all those sort of things that you wouldn't get in that little choir around the corner. You just couldn't, you know, they just wouldn't be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

I think I think I think there's a lot of value for money. I think that's the thing. I think as you as you work with a choir, if you sing with a choir, that can produce you know amazing resources for their choir and learning opportunities and singing opportunities and social opportunities, and they can do it in multiple places so that if they just if they miss their one rehearsal a week, they can go somewhere else. Yeah, I think that is worth so much, so much value.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

I think so. And just that you know, the the performance opportunities, the holiday opportunities, you know, we do a we do I do lots of little technique exercises, sort of videos and stuff, so they've got that in the back end of the website, you know. And if anybody ever says, Oh, I'd love to know more about that, I'll probably do a little video so they can, you know, we're kind of constantly listening to our membership and and trying to make their experience better.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

Yeah, yeah. So let's get some last last tips on uh for for choir directors out there. And if let's just say a choir director wants to build a kind of an inclusive non-audition choir, but they still want to perform to a high standard. What should they focus on first?

Warm Ups Rehearsal Plan And Consistency

SPEAKER_00 31:24

Um, I would say um the number one thing which I mentioned before, be fun, create enjoyment. That's the that's the number one thing that I would say. Um it doesn't matter what your end goal is, it doesn't matter if it's a classical choir, if it's a folk choir, a pop choir. Even if you're singing with music and you're trying to be, you want to be an amazing touring chamber choir, this those people need to have the enjoyment and the fun factor. They still have to feel like they're being being respected and they want to come there. Um, and I was I mean, I was thinking about this earlier, and I the pro choir that I sing sing with London Voices is run by a choir director. Now we're we're singing at the very top end of singing, you know, for for movies and everything, really high pressure. We've got to get one take and we're done. He, our leader, Ben Parry, is the most amazing choir leader in that respect. I mean, you know, you've you've experienced him as well. I mean, he's just so amazing at making you feel like you're having fun, even on a six-hour session. And I and he's a brilliant example of that, you know, in completely opposite spectrum of what I'm doing in my community choir. But I always try to reflect that no matter how hard we're working and what we're trying to achieve, we we're keeping that fun going. So I think that's my that's my number one. Um, I think doing lots of um copying back exercises so that people in as soon as they come, they've got that immediate um achievement is really good. So I think like in the warm-up, doing something that achieves harmony really fast, um, whether it's a little whatever it may be, a little round or a little short work warm-up exercise that's super, super easy. Something so they go, Wow, I can do this. I think that gets them on side really early on. And the times that I don't do that, I feel like I don't get as far with the choir by the end because they just have they haven't sort of come on board with me early enough. Um, it's too late to start that halfway through when you're learning something. You've got to get it in first and then you move on. So I think that's a those are probably my biggest um two tips.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

I think I think it's interesting what you said about uh singing in professional choirs, and something something that I've done for many, many years as well. And we, you know, we I've sung with London Voices too, and and it is, but you're right. I I I think it's a very high-pressure um environment, but I think you also you learn so much about yourself and about music in those kind of environments. And as you say, uh having a fun environment is key, having a warm atmosphere, uh not it's not relaxed, it's not very relaxing, but it's it's very serious, but you're also enjoying what you're doing, and I think that's very important to bring to any choir. I think run it to as professional standard as you can do it, run the behind the scenes professionally, but you've got to create a community feel in a in a community choir. Is there one rehearsal principle you wish every every conductor would adopt and one that they should ditch?

SPEAKER_00 34:32

Um I think the yes, I think everybody should always um do some breathing. I'm always astonished. I I because I go in and I'll I'll cover for a lot of choirs. I have previously covered a lot of choirs, um, and I always say, Do you normally do some breathing? You know, before you start, nine times out of ten, they say no. Um, and I just it doesn't even need to be long, just like a couple three minutes of just letting the breath settle because it is the core thing to singing. It is the core, it has to be the core, it's the power source. And if people can just do that weekly, um it will just become ingrained in them, their habit will change, and they will their voice will just start to change, will grow. There's there's you can't stop it from getting better if you've got that basis. Um, it was really interesting. Yesterday I was teaching, so often my my choir will want to come and have a lesson one-to-one with me, and if I've got a bit of time, I'll do it. Yesterday I taught um, I taught two, one who's been coming for a while, one who's been coming just recently, one who's obviously done a lot of the breathing with me over the time and has just got used to it, even though not really knowing so much about it, but just having done it, just don't just doing it, just doing it, and then one who's new to it completely. The difference when I then was working one-to-one was just off the chart. Because, you know, just being able to say, just remember where your breath is, and doing that, oh yeah, fine, meant that we could then work on the the top notes in the way they wanted to. But the person who hadn't had that experience of the breathing so much, basically, I couldn't do nearly so much with them because they just didn't have that foundation to be able to then move on. So, yeah, that would be my first thing. Just do a bit of breathing with them. And and if you don't know that much about breathing yourself, then just do a little bit of finding out about you know some breathing techniques. I do accent breath method, if people want to look up that, which is wonderful. Um, and it's really, really simple. It's not about singing, it's just about finding connection of breath. Um, just find about find out some a few little exercises you can do and just always do it every week. That'd be very simple.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

And which uh which should they ditch?

SPEAKER_00 36:46

What should they ditch? Um, am I allowed to say ditch the words, ditch the ditch the uh ditch the music? Ditch the music. I have to say, ditch the music. I mean, even if and it's difficult because I do a pop choir, but you know, I do a poppy kind of choir.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

You're not talking about learning with the music, you're talking about ditch it in performance, are you? Or anytime.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Ditching it performance, definitely. I mean, even with a classical choir, if I was singing with a classical choir, I would still learn the music, I'd still know the music. Even if I had the music in front of me, I probably wouldn't even look at it. You know that. That's what what that's what happens in a professional setting. You just you know the music by that point, but but but even more so with a community choir, having this music that you probably are not really reading, it's just a barrier to you and the audience, you and the conductor, you and the other members around you. It's a barrier of connection, it's a barrier of enjoyment. And I just think even if you if you're if you if you really think you want to have music, I get it. There are choirs that want to do that. At least maybe try one song without music and just see what the difference is.

Pricing Value And Member Support

SPEAKER_01 37:56

It's massive. The difference is massive. I see it all the time. You see it in rehearsal, you see it in performances, you see it in, you know, when you when you watch other choirs, you you know, you see the difference. But I I I too, I've I've had people that have left my choirs because they want to use music, they will only use music. But you know, how can you sing how can you sing a pop song, you know, and move and feel the music with a folder in your hand, a black folder and music in your hand? You just can't do it. Or you watch people with iPads in their hand, it looks ridiculous. Um, and they're not engaged, they're not engaged with the audience because they're looking down most of the time. If you've got the comfort blanket, you're gonna use it. Uh, and if you've got if you've got these things in your hand, you're just gonna look at them because that's what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

Even if you're not really looking at them, do you know what I mean? You're just sort of looking through them, but it's just you can't help but to look at them, and that's the problem. So that's why I always, you know, it's my first thing with people, just just ditch the music.

SPEAKER_01 38:49

Do you have I'm sure you do, um, do you have any funny anecdotes? Have you had any disasters or anything really, really funny or silly that have happened?

SPEAKER_00 38:59

Um, I mean, I I I've had plenty of um I've had plenty of emails.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

Plenty of emails. I had a very lovely one which I've I've got printed out on my wall that says, Um, I won't be coming back to your choir because I do not like that boogie-woogie music. If you don't like the boogie-woogie music, then we are not for you. Um, so yeah, that was that was particularly good. And I had another one actually only this week, which I sent round to my team. I wonder if this is even even um even allowed. Do you know what? Do you know what I've got uh another problem as well is is the lyrics. I do find this is a bit of a problem at the moment, is you know, songs and lyrics, and um, we did a one of the Lizzo songs, um, which she says it's bad bitch o'clock. And um, yeah, that created quite the uproar. Um, so I do find that thing that's quite tricky to sort of deal with.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

Um, because you've got so many of the old songs refer to things that are not particularly appropriate anymore, even in some of the Christmas songs, you know, it it it's even the traditional Christmas songs, you know, it's really tricky now to to not upset someone.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

And and the problem is that there, you know, there's so many different genres which do have these songs. I mean, uh, we're just doing this Bruno Mars song. It it's not it's not ideal, some of the lyrics, I'll be honest, you know. But how far are you gonna go into it and just say we can't blanket, we can't do any of these songs? Well, that's probably a whole genre you're gonna just eliminate, you know. So I that that's been that's been tricky, and we have definitely had some quite funny moments with um people complaining.

SPEAKER_01 40:57

How do you deal with it though? Do you do you what do you do? Do you say that's the way it's written, that's what we're doing, or do you say, okay, we'll change it?

Rehearsal Rules Breathing And No Music

SPEAKER_00 41:06

Well, well, I mean, with the with the we get we're thinking of we might do it like a social media reply to Bruno Mars, just as a bit of a comedy sort of thing. I mean, you can't I I personally think you can't get too stuck in it because as I say, there would there would be no end to it, really. Um there's so many different there's so many different artists out there that really you're just gonna be stuck with what you can and can't do. And I don't want music to become something that we're just having to sort of dissect everything and decide whether we personally feel that's good enough for us. It's like, well, well, you know, I think we can all just be a bit over the top about things. Um, I mean, somebody just this is a brilliant one. This this is a little messaged recently uh this week. So somebody we did the Bruno Mars and they hated it, obviously, um, during rehearsal. Okay. And um, and then they just put a little, they sent a little message this week that said, That awful Bruno Mars song just came on the radio and I loved it.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

That's ironic. Oh, how funny.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

So that's the thing, isn't it? It's like maybe we're here just to educate people that they don't have to feel immediately like, oh, I hate, I hate this, I can't possibly sing this. Because you know, I've I've got a I've got a lovely member, she's been with us forever, and she will very openly tell me when she dislikes a song straight away. Oh, I hate this, you know. And then usually by the concert, she'll come, guess what? It's my favorite song.

SPEAKER_01 42:42

It can often work like that because people you don't know the song, so that you assume you don't like it, or if it's difficult, or it sounds a little bit discordant, or something's not quite right, and then the more you rehearse it and the more you learn it and you learn to sing it well, it then starts becoming a great sing. I remember doing a doing a medley of Sondheim music, and the choir the choir started doing it, and most of the choir were like, Okay, this is gonna be really difficult, and it's I'm not really liking any of the songs, I don't really know it. And by the end, it was like everybody's favourite thing to sing, you know.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

Of course, because Sondheim is amazing. And I think that that probably our our duty is to educate a little bit as well, you know, in some of these songs. I mean, we've we've mashed up the Bruno Mars new song with Young Hearts Run Free, like a classic 70s disco track. And I and I think that's really nice because you've got then the sort of the juxtaposition of the two different styles, but also how Bruno Mars is such a pastiche on 70s disco. That's his, you know, that's his thing, and it just sort of then really emphasizes that, and it just shows how music is is constantly like harking back to old styles and you know, and how they all work together. It's it's it's wonderful. So, yeah, I think that's a lovely thing.

SPEAKER_01 43:57

Do all your choirs come together to perform? Do you ever do one big concert?

SPEAKER_00 44:02

Well, uh we had our fifteenth year anniversary and we we tried, so we did have to do two concerts because there was just no and basically I have to I'm gonna have to book the O2 at some point. I'm gonna have to do it. Or the Albert Hall. Do it So I'll be looking for sponsorship.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

What's the few hundred thousand?

SPEAKER_00 44:22

So yeah, we did two concerts when we had sort of uh 300 people at each one, and that was that was kind of the best thing we could do. We did the we did the same concert twice, basically, with two with the different choirs, which was wonderful, which was wonderful. But yeah, I think my 20-year anniversary, my plan is to get everyone together.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

Sounds fun. Well, sounds sounds like you've got a great choir um and some great people, and it's been really fantastic talking with you today. So thank you so much, Abby Gilchrist. It's been a such a pleasure talking to you and hearing all your amazing tips and the wonderful work you're doing. I wish you all the best.

SPEAKER_00 44:57

Thank you so much. Keep keep singing, everyone. Thanks.

Complaints Lyrics Big Concerts Closing

SPEAKER_01 45:02

Wow, what a lovely lady, the wonderful Abby Gilchrist. Well, we've got some more amazing choir directors lined up for you in the next few weeks, some great guests on the show as we continue to spread the word, share our knowledge, and give back to the choir industry as a whole. Interviewing people from around the world, helping us to learn more, helping us to understand more, and helping us to deliver those exceptional experiences to our choirs. Please don't forget to like the show, and a review would help us so much get to more choir directors to share the knowledge and experience that we're all gaining from these wonderful people and the tips I have for you along the way. Now we're on all the major podcast streaming platforms and some of the minor ones too, so you won't find it difficult to find us. But please do leave a review, leave some comments, and we can help lots, lots more people just like us. Until next time, thank you and goodbye.