Welcome And Listener Support

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Welcome back to the corner directors podcast, the essential resource for corner directors, conductors, and vocal leaders who want to build stronger corners, better rehearsals, and create outstanding musical experiences. And I'm your host, Russell Scott. Well a massive thank you once again for all those people listening and downloading the new show. I'm so glad you're enjoying it. We've been inundated with messages. Keep those messages coming. You can contact us via the website at the choir directorpodcast.com. And you can contact the studio from there. Please don't forget to help us to get to more choir directors and spread the word by reviewing the show, liking the show, subscribing the show, click all the buttons you can, and leave as many reviews as you possibly can. It really helps us to spread all the great knowledge and experience we're getting from listening to some of the amazing guests I have on the show. And if you've got a message to get out there, if you've got something great to tell us about your choir or your performance, or your experience working in a choir business in a commercial way, or perhaps you're teaching in a school, or perhaps you have a really special way of working through rehearsals or techniques, I'd love to hear from you. Please do get in touch. We've got some incredible guests lined up in the weeks ahead. But we're of course I would love to hear from more choir directors out there across the world, as we are being listened to in over 47 countries worldwide right now. And today's guest is James Manwaring MBE, a choral director and music educator whose work includes leadership connected with Windsor Boys' School here in the UK and the wider conversation about school music making. In this episode, we talk about how to start a school choir rehearsal well, how to engage teenagers, and a few practical habits that really make a big difference when time is tight, plus how James is supporting a movement to get a choir into every school. Welcome, James. Excellent, thank you for having me. It's good to be here. It's lovely to lovely to have you on the show. Thanks for spending some time out of uh normal teaching life. Tell us a little bit about your background first and foremost and what you're doing and where you are and and how you spend your musical life.

Building Music In A Sports School

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Yeah, well, I'm I'm uh director of music um in a school in Windsor, um, which is a school that I actually went to as a student and uh did my GTSE's A levels, but then I ended up back there uh working whilst I was at university, um kind of building up at the music department, which was um they had a music department, but it was it wasn't really kind of a large department, it didn't impact many students, and the school was mainly a sports kind of place, really, outside of the lessons. Um, and then finished university, got a job there as a teacher, and I've never left. And now I'm in charge of um the six schools that are part of our uh multi-academy trust, and um so it kind of has has moved from being a classroom job in one school to running music across six schools, which is really exciting. Um so that's my day job, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Now you also you also conduct community choirs, but you've obviously you've also received uh an incredible um award, uh, an MBE from the King himself. Um tell us a little bit about that and how that all came about.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Um yeah, well, it's absolutely amazing. I I was um given it in the King's birthday honours uh last year, and uh I found out about eight weeks before it's announced, and I had to keep it quiet. Um and it was uh mainly for my work in in education, and that's that's what it was for services to education. But I guess it came about because um I do so much in the community with um the music um with the with the music departments that I work with, so it was kind of like in recognition of um not just what I'd done within within schools, and I guess you know, long service in one school is is helpful, um, but possibly because of all the work I do with schools out in the community, getting students out singing, um, as well as running community choirs and and other events. Um, but I mean it's a real honour, and you kind of question yourself, you know, why why have I got this? Do I deserve it? What about everybody else that's doing amazing things? Um, but then I also reflect on it and think it's been uh a lot of hard work over the years, I guess, to really build up music, um, to reach a wide range of of young people um and to keep that going um in the face of all that education faces all the time, budget cuts and various things like that. So so yes, that was a real a real honour, um, quite literally, and went up to Windsor Castle in January. Um was given it by Prince William, which was really nice, and we were able to chat for it was about a minute and a half about music education and the real power of that to reach you know all young people, really. So um, yeah, so that's that was quite an exciting start to the year.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

We've we've we've known each other some time, a number of years, and it's always been a pleasure working with you and talking with you and and sharing stories with you. You're an incredible uh incredible leader and um an inspiration to young people, especially working working in schools and in what you do. And and the wonderful thing about you, James, is there's no there's no big ego. And and it's all about rolling your sleeves up and getting involved in music. Music it means everything to you, clearly.

Morning Rehearsals And Radical Inclusion

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Yeah, well, thank you for saying that. It's very kind. I'm sure not everyone would agree. I think some people sometimes think, you know, yeah, I'm trying to take over everything. But no, to be honest with you, since um the day I started teaching, it's just been about how can I reach as many young people as possible. Um, and there are things I do now that I've done forever, you know, for I mean I've been teaching for 22 years, and one of the things I've done from the first week I was in the school was do rehearsals in the mornings before school starts. Um, because I identified that I worked in a boys' school after school is football, rugby, rowing, hockey, tennis, homework. When am I gonna do rehearsals? And so I've I started rehearsals at quarter to eight in the morning and have done that ever since. Every single day, give or take, there's a rehearsal before school, and I'm lucky because Windsor is quite a little village, really, where most students can either walk or ride their bike, they're not coming in on buses, they're not having to get the train in, so they can get to school, so I am quite fortunate. Um, but yeah, I've had to kind of maintain that. Um, and it's just it's just one of those things I always reflect on, and it's just been like, actually, what can I do to ensure that music reaches as many young people as possible? And that's always been my thing. And sometimes people say, Well, why don't you do this? Why don't you do that? And I think, well, I could do a small ensemble, um, but actually then I wouldn't have time to do a massive one. Um, and so we have like an orchestra of about 80 students, and they are big beginners to experts, as it were. So you've got children in that orchestra that are holding an instrument where they're not really sure what it is and how to play it, right up to students that have been playing for a number of years. And uh sometimes people say, Well, why don't you do a smaller group for this slot? And and I'm like, No, do you know what? Let's get them all in the room, let's let's get them all making music, and actually it will work and they'll be inspired. And that's the same with singing. I mean, we've got um just just before we recorded this, so we had our boys' choir rehearsal, there's probably about 50-60 boys in that if they're all there, um, and they come, they come kind of pouring into the music room with bits of pizza hanging out their mouth and their drinks, and they sit down and it's quite rough round the edges. Um, some of them aren't sure they're a tenor, a baritone, some of them aren't even really sure you know if the music's upside down or not, but they're there and it's completely inclusive. Um, and I think that's just what I've always done, and that means that everyone can do everything, and which is which is nice. I don't have any auditions or barriers to to anything, which does mean at times, I mean, if you were listening to the choir sometimes or the orchestra, you'd think, oh, that was a that was a bit out of tune, or that was a wrong note, but behind that wrong note will probably be a kid that then giggles and smiles and keeps coming back, and that's um so that's kind of yeah, what I'm all about, really. And um it it just works for my setting, and um and it it doesn't mean that there aren't kids that go on to become really good as well at what they do.

Handling Voice Change With Confidence

SPEAKER_01 8:38

So that that all sounds pretty amazing, and uh it you know it's great that people are walking in the door to start with, you know, getting into the rehearsal room and trying things out and ex experimenting. Now, how do you do you you're working with kids of all ages, presumably? How do you deal with uh voice breaking and all that kind of thing around that sort of period? Because you're obviously going to get, especially you know, boys that as you say, they're going you're not sure they're not sure what voice part they are. How do you deal with with the whole change and through adolescence and so on?

SPEAKER_00 9:05

Yeah, I wish I had a really good scientific academic answer to that. Um the way I deal with it is by not making it too much of a big thing, but kind of guiding them as a group, because I find that some students can really you know react badly when they feel like, oh gosh, is I've my voice hasn't broken. Am I I mean uh we do start at the boys' school in year nine, so they are you know 13 years old. So it's not you know, it's kind of some of them will have uh their voice would have changed, but also um I do a lot of barbershop arrangements where you can kind of have that top tenor part, and so students their voice hasn't broken and they can still reach reach that kind of range, suddenly become the heroes of the choir because they're doing that wonderful kind of part part top, and so that's been a real kind of god sense, that kind of barbershop route. Um, and then I and then I guess I work with them to talk. I mean, I think voices are always changing, aren't they? Um and so it's about working with them to say, okay, where are you where are you feeling comfortable? Um doing warm-ups and exercises to just get them to test their range and work on it, and also for some of them, it's just that confidence to actually use their voice and sing out, um, and so actually pairing them next to I don't know, an 18-year-old boy who's been in the choir for a while, who's singing with full you know, guster, um can really help. And I think that's one of the real powers of music and choirs is that you have all ages in the room, and so you can pair up the younger ones with the older ones and they can inspire each other, which is really helpful. Um so yeah, I guess it's a less scientific approach, but I just try and not make it a big thing, but try and get singing parts that will suit them. Um and I do that some boys come in and just assume that everything is high, and they've never ever thought about singing as a bass. And I've got this this one boy I can think of who can sing so incredibly low. But yeah, when I first met him, he's like, Oh, I can't sing, I mean, my my voice doesn't work almost. And then I'm like, Well, try this, because when he talks, it's really low. And so, and now he's just like, Wow, this is great, I can sing the bass line and absolutely belt it out, which is which is brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

When you when you walk into a school rehearsal, because it is different to a uh you know working with adults and working in a community choir and so on, when you walk into a school rehearsal, what are the kind of the sort of first couple of things you do to get them focused and sounding quickly, you know, as a as a choir?

SPEAKER_00 11:44

That is a good question, because I mean we are often doing rehearsals at lunchtime where you've got half an hour now, um mainly to be to pack it in. So you've got to get on with it quite quickly, um, you've got to try and incorporate the the the singing of the songs and the warm-up and and all of that kind of stuff. So you've got to do quite a lot quickly. I think I I'm always there. I'm there at the start, and we just get going. I know that there are boys that are gonna come in late, and I can't I can't really worry about that too much because if they have been kept behind in a lesson, or they've been queuing to get their lunch, or they've need to go to the toilet, so it's about trying to make it like you know, you've got to understand the situation that you're in. Um, and then I think it's about making it meaningful from the get-go, and it not feeling like, oh, it's you know, it's only lunchtime, we're not it's about saying, like, actually, we're here, we can do something with the time that we've got. Um, I mean, I must admit, you do get that with adults as well, though. I mean, I run a community choir on a Tuesday evening, and adults come in late and they're chat chat chat, and you've got to get that focus with them as well. And I think actually sometimes it can be easier with children because they have to they they want to be behave and they're in school and all that kind of stuff. Um, but then it's hard because it's might be their lunch break or it might be the end of a long day and they might have had a really difficult maths test and they've got to go and do something. Um, and then in the evenings when you've got adults coming out, maybe they've had a long day at work. So for me, it's about striving for quality, but also creating that start where you kind of ease people into it. I mean, you know, with with my adult choir, I'll often tell a joke or do a warm-up that will get them smiling, get them engaged, get them doing something out of their comfort zone. Last night I made my choir sway from side to side and click off the beat, and some of them are just like, Oh gosh, are we gonna be able to do this? And it's just makes me laugh, and it makes them laugh, and then actually the atmosphere is like, let's go. Um, and so I think it that's that's always the same with young people as well. But also you've you've got to be aware. I mean, it's the same with adults, but with young people, you're kind of looking around the room and you're thinking about them and what's going on, and are they there and and how are they seeming? Are they you know, are the there's all of that kind of social stuff going on as well that you've got to be hugely aware of. Um, it's it's so much more than just singing, isn't it? It's it's about the people that are in front of you. Um, and I dare I say you've got to make it fun as well. I mean, I I sometimes people will will frown at that when you talk about making education or singing or anything that you do fun. Um but but you do have to make it that. People need to come out and enjoy it, and that if they're giving up their lunchtime, it needs to be um fun and enjoyable and engaging and and kind of have a bit of purpose to it. And I think if you have a a loose start where you're where you're not getting on with it, it can then mean that they're not quite as focused from the beginning. Um one uh one other thing with the the the kids is I tr very often music because actually by the time you've handed out music and then you got enough copies and all that kind of stuff, actually sometimes just teaching it by ear or having the words up on the screen or even having the music up at the front on a screen can be quite good. Um not for everything, but just sometimes it's quite good to just say, Let's sing this song, let's just go for it, a a folk tune or or something. Um, because then they're not there's no barriers when they walk in, and they can kind of walk in the room and they start singing straight away, which is which is quite nice to see.

Leading Adults And Teenagers Authentically

SPEAKER_01 15:20

So that I mean that sounds you know that sounds great. You're working with sort of two different kinds of people, it's a different demographics. How do you uh do you approach the the people in the same way? Do you approach the rehearsals in the same way, or do you kind of have to change it depending on on age and relevance of of your approach?

SPEAKER_00 15:39

Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I think I I do everything very much me, so people know what they're gonna get. Um, and obviously, yeah, when you're working with adults, it's slightly different in terms of your sense of humour, and it's it's you're telling them off in a slightly different way, aren't you? You're kind of using adult ways of of doing that, whereas in school it's slightly different. Um, but I get I guess I very much approach it as what they've come there to get from it. So certainly my community choir, whilst we're always striving to sing really well, it's also I know that people have come there for the community aspect of it and for their own mental health and well-being and friendship and all that kind of stuff. So you have to kind of meet people where they're at and slowly take them on that journey of, oh, actually, you can you know actually sing quite well, and if we can work on this. So I I get that balance right between I mean, last night I had a community choir rehearsal where I mentioned Wagner and the Tristan chord and tension and resolution and all this stuff, and actually you're kind of showing them that music has got this power, and that as a as a musician you understand that, and you're trying to take them on that journey a little bit. Um, whereas with young people, I mean it's the same in the sense that you've got to understand if you want a load of kids to turn up to a choir rehearsal, you've got to make sure it's beneficial to them that they enjoy it, but you've also got to make sure that they're not just mucking around and that they are getting better and that they are following the rules and improving. So I think it's just that kind of balancing act. Um, but I like to think that I'm quite similar and quite authentic in my leadership, I guess. But then sometimes I'll be asked to go and conduct a choir, and you you approach that differently because you don't know them. And if you're doing a one-off rehearsal, it will often be right, I you know, Russell's asked me to go through this, so let's go through it together. You know, I want to get to know you, and you always spot that person um in the in the choir that will ask the questions or go, what bar are we at, or why are we doing this? And you quickly identify people and then you use your experience to kind of you know know who who's who. Um and I think a good bit of humour sometimes helps with with a rehearsal.

Earning Respect Through Consistency

SPEAKER_01 17:49

It takes longer, I think, to um for trust to to really settle in to the room, uh, and working with uh with with choir directors. And I think that I it's probably harder with with kids in many ways because you have to gain their respect. It takes longer to gain their respect, I think. How do you get how do you get kids on your side?

SPEAKER_00 18:14

Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. Respect is so important. I think you get them on your side by being very authentic, by being committed, and by it being really worthwhile, and and them them them feeling like they're they're getting something from it, and you're always leading towards something, um, and and not like not missing a rehearsal, not cancelling a rehearsal because you can't be bothered. It's just like you're always there and you always kind of bring your energy. Um, and that they feel like it's actually this is worthwhile. So I was I always say to school teachers, like at the beginning of the year, you've got to work out when's your first performance. And for us, it's always open evening, which is about four weeks in to the term. Sometimes it might only be three, but normally it's about four weeks, beginning of October. So I say to the boys, right, here's our first performance, and actually, it's in front of a really nice audience of prospective parents coming to look round, all very exciting. It doesn't need to be long, but it's actually a good, it's a good number of people, and it's something to work towards straight away, and then they get that buzz and they go, Oh, that was good, and then you're like, right, the next thing is a concert, and then from there you've always got something that you're working towards. So then they go, actually, we want to keep coming back. And I also think every now and again you've got to be real and be yourself, and you've got to just chat to them and ask them how they're doing, and and kind of you know, joke with them and laugh with them and and share all of that, and and you know, if you're feeling sometimes I'll be I'll try and eat my lunch obviously before I'm doing a rehearsal, but sometimes you are doing a rehearsal and you're trying to grab a bit of sandwich, and you're just showing them look, we're all actually in this together. Um, and I I do think that's the same with with adults because with my community choir, so I've I've been running that for about 15 years now, and in the early days I was really nervous about doing performances because there weren't many of them, and we were still developing, but I quickly realized it was the same principle. Once we had something to work towards every term, people were like, Oh, okay, great, I'm gonna be there because I want to know the words and I want to know the music, um, and I want to feel like I'm part of it, and so I think it worked that that works the same.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

What um what mistakes do you think um teachers of particular but particularly music teachers uh working with kids, what do you think their greatest mistakes are in the rehearsal room?

SPEAKER_00 20:44

I think the first mistake would be trying to create a group that is like another school, for example. So you know, looking at the the local school that's got a maybe a 16-part chamber choir that's been that's had that for a hundred year history, and you're going in and trying to copy them. I think doing something that's not for your students, I think is key. Um, and also doing something outside of your own musical comfort zone, you know. So actually, if you're if you're pushing the students in the wrong direction and and you also don't have the skills to take them there, then that's a real problem because then you'll end up trying to create the same choir as up the road, and that might not be right for your students. And then I think the other mistake is some of those things I've talked about, like being inconsistent, cancelling things. Um because children see through that, they they will see commitment, and I'm sure adults do as well. People respect commitment, just turning up. I mean, my um adult community choir, I've cancelled one rehearsal in 15 years. That's it, and that was because my wife was really ill, and I was like, actually, I'm I can't, you know, I'm I'm I'm gonna be there, and and it's the same at school. If I can't be there, I'll make sure my colleague is there, and if neither of us could be there, we'll get a Six former and say, could you do this? And they love it because they get to do a bit of leading. So I think it's making that mistake of forgetting that actually these people really value it. They're there in the room, they they want to be there, and so you've got to meet them where they're at. Um, but I think the other mistake as well would be like not asking for help, not being prepared to learn. Um, I don't know everything about singing, and you know, I I know I've come to you for advice on things, and I've got other people I might call up and say, you know, what how do I do this or whatever? And I think you've just got to be know that in the world of music, there's so much that we don't know about. We haven't all conducted every musical or every score out there, and there will be other people who have and they'll know the pitfalls of it. Um, and I think it's about being open to that and not thinking you know it all and being precious about it. Um, yeah, there are a few learning. I'm sure there's lots more. Yeah, always all learning, aren't we?

SPEAKER_01 22:56

All learning, all learning all the time. I mean, like, you know, it doesn't matter how long you've been doing it, um, whether you've been doing it for you know, five months, five years, fifty years. I think we're still all learning. We're learning from each other, we're learning from singers, we're learning learning from experiences. I think that's what makes it really exciting for us as well, not just the the people that we're trying to inspire and teach ourselves. Yeah, um it's interesting you were saying about um asking, you know, asking for others for help and um and and not everybody knows everything about every element. And I know that you're very passionate about getting choirs into schools. And we all we you know, we find that there are many people in schools that can run choirs, not just the head of music, for example. And in fact, sometimes in sometimes the the music faculty, the the teachers in the music are not necessarily choral experts, they could be experts at instruments, they could be experts at teaching music, theory of music, composition, um, the curriculum, um, but not necessarily working with choirs. So uh tell tell us a little bit more about this this brand new initiative because it's a really exciting, exciting idea.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

Yeah, um so well it's called a choir in every school, and it kind of came about after I was speaking to the the BBC just before Christmas on a piece they were doing about singing in schools and the decline of singing in schools, and I just kind of coined the phrase we need a choir in every school because we do, you know, and um from there I've kind of launched this movement to get choirs into schools. We're you're looking at about 38% of state secondary schools have singing in in the school, um, and that could just be at Christmas or it could just be a one-off thing, and so the the whole kind of campaign, although I'm calling it a movement because a movement is like this codicultural shift that's going to happen over time, is to say, look, we need a choir in every school, we could have a choir in every school, so how do we do that? Well, first of all, we need to start them where they don't exist, and that could be with anyone who's prepared to stand up and do it. And again, that's that thing about if we wait until we are all perfect and know everything, and we have the perfect scenario and we've got the budget, we're we'll be waiting forever. You know, we're never we're never gonna get there. So we need to just we're we're looking to say, right, we need to start choirs, then how can we um support them? So, actually, how can we support existing choirs? How can we support people that are starting them? How can we support teachers that don't know anything about singing or choirs? Um, and one thing I'm really passionate about is getting rid of this thing where we think that music is just for a few of us that are the educated musicians, music is for everyone, everyone can learn to read those little squiggles on a bit of paper that we look at. Um, and I see that in my adult choir because I I give them music and some of them go, Oh gosh, I've never read music before. And I say, Don't worry about that. Can you read words? Great, swallow those, then start to look at the little dots above, and you'll learn. And I I really want to empower teachers to say, if you are prepared to stand up in front of a group of kids and lead them, then great, that's the hardest part. You can learn the rest, but there's also great resources out there um that can help them, and then the third thing is like sustaining choirs, so ensuring that choirs that have maybe been going for a long time can continue to grow and develop. Um, quiet schools where they might have one type of choir could add a gospel choir or a musical theatre choir or whatever. Um, so those are the three areas, and the so far we are kind of galvanizing people across the country. Um, and this is all through the Music Teachers Association, of which I'm the president at the moment. Um, and we're just looking at ways of doing this, really, ways of supporting through resources, networking, webinars, emailing. Loads of people have just been emailing me saying, Have you got any advice on this? or how can I help, you know, how can I do this? And just those little quick exchanges that actually might help people, as well as hopefully um organizing some events in the future where we get the most inspiring choral leaders and and teachers and experts to just inspire young people and teachers. Um, and I guess the other thing as well is signposting to all the amazing things that are already happening. We're not trying to do everything, we're trying to kind of say, How can we connect all these dots um under a really catchy fun title of a choir in every school, which is something I say every single day at the moment, and um it's the main thing people say is well that's impossible, or how are you gonna do that? And I kind of say, I don't know, but I want to see a choir in every school, and if that takes ten years, then it takes ten years, and we probably will never have a choir in every school. Um, but wouldn't it be nice if we had 10 more by the end of the year kind of thing? So yeah, it's really exciting, and I re I guess you could say that about every community as well. Um, acquiring every community would be good, acquire in every every setting, every town, every village hall um you know would be amazing as well. Um so yeah, it's really exciting, it's certainly keeping me keeping my inbox busy.

Responsibility And The Case For Choir

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Do you think uh where where do you think the initiative uh lies and the responsibility? Do you think it is with the head teacher of a school? Do you think it's with a head of music, or do you think it could be from another teacher who says, you know what, I run this choir, or I think I could do that, or I would love to do that. Where do you think it should come from? Who should initiate the I can do it or we can do it or we should do it?

SPEAKER_00 28:32

Yeah, I I've been thinking about this a lot, and I've said the example I've been saying to people is if a school got rid of the football team, for example, there'd be uproar, wouldn't there? The headmaster would probably be cross, the head teacher would would be banging the door down at the sports department, the parents would be upset, the community would be saying, What no football team, the students would be complaining, and so that leads me to that thought that actually we need to make this everyone's problem, or we need to make everyone aware of if there isn't a choir in a school, you should all be asking why, isn't there? But in order for them to ask why, they need to know why it's a problem, I guess, and they need that education of a choir in a school is this unique and wonderful group, all ages, all students, completely inclusive, can be students that are have got lots of additional needs, can be students that have social anxiety that want to connect with people, it can be students that are very lonely, it can be students that are very talented, beginners, everyone. And it's not only about singing and it's not only about performing, but it's about mental health, social cohesion, it's about the whole kind of well-being of every single student. And I think if we can get head teachers, other teachers, the community, the governors, the parents, the grandparents to be all thinking, gosh, yeah, that's really powerful, then if they are all taking responsibility, then that's when it will happen. But if parents aren't asking for it, if the music teacher isn't doing it, if no one's then it's not gonna happen. And so it's about raising that awareness. Um, I'm actually reading a book at the moment called Art Cure by Daisy Fancourt. Um, it's an amazing book, all about the power of the arts to actually affect people's mental health, and and it's all based on extensive research. Absolutely incredible book. Um, and just reading the stories of it, I'm like, yes, that is true. And it's it's kind of basically saying if the NHS prescribed going to choir, it would deal with so many problems with depression and um anxiety, etc. And um and I think that that's the thing we need everybody to take responsibility in a school for for it.

Repertoire That Makes Choir Feel Cool

SPEAKER_01 30:44

How do we how do we motivate kids? Because I think a lot of kids uh at school first of all think that choirs are not that cool because it's all classical music and they don't like classical music. I mean a lot of kids love classical music, um, and and you know, it's where it all began, is that we still use classical technique and classical examples and film music is you know it's all inspired by classical music. But you know, how do we inspire young people to join a choir or to get on board with something? Whether it's happened, you know, whether it's a brand new initiative or whether it's an existing choir in a school where all the kids think, you know, we love musicals, we love doing pop music, we love doing this, but the choir is all you know folk music and world music and classical music. How do we get them involved, or do you think that there are some changes needed by the teachers um and the schools to broaden the the music?

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Yeah, I think it's really important to um like I've like I've mentioned, it it needs to be for the students you've got in front of you. But I I also think that sometimes we uh make assumptions for students and we kind of like say they're no for them. Um because if you introduce Bach or Mozart or Pacini um to students, then you never know, they might enjoy it. Um and I think you need to be prepared to uh kind of open their eyes to everything that's out there and not be saying, Oh, I'm not sure that you're gonna want to listen to this, or I'm not sure that this is for you. Because I I find, I mean, we were singing, um, my colleague sings corrals a lot when he teaches Bart chorrals, um, and they love it, they love singing that stuff, and so I think it's about finding that balance and making that accessible, but also bringing it to life and not assuming that students are gonna understand that. Like, even in my teaching, if if I'm asking a student to go and listen to say Berlio's Symphonie Fantastique, which I'm teaching at the moment, that's quite hard for them to go home and sit down for an hour and listen to something. So you've got to teach them how to do that, you've got to teach them how to appreciate it, how to enjoy it, and that's where that performance comes in as well, and having a nice range of things will give them stuff to get their teeth stuck into. So it does kind of come down to the teacher not saying, Oh, I don't think my students would like that. Um, I take students to the opera house and and they love it. Um, some of them have never been to see an opera before, um, but that's because I'm passionate about it and I bring it to life. There are some students who don't like singing modern songs because they're hearing that stuff all the time and they don't, you know, they don't like it. And part of my thing with the choir in every school is actually reclaiming the word choir. Like I don't want it to be about robes and churches and choral music and classical. I I want it to be the word it is, this you wonderful group of people singing together. Um, and so I think reclaiming that word and and making choir cool again. Um, but that doesn't mean saying, hi guys, we're gonna sing this song that came out this week. Kids see through that, you know. They don't what young people want is not a teacher trying to be cool, they want a teacher that cares, and they want a teacher that is committed, and they want a teacher that's consistent and fair. You you don't need to be you can be down to earth, as it were, but you don't need to try and be um something you're not, because they'll see through that, especially teenagers, I think. Um, and the other thing that's quite funny is you know, kids actually listen to loads of music now. I mean, when we were growing up, it was different, wasn't it? You had to go and buy a CD or get a record, or you know, I I talk to them all the time about going to HMV on Oxford Street and going downstairs to that wonderful classical music department and buying a CD of something. Now you could listen to 50 different versions of one symphony, and so actually, young people are they're they're pretty good at listening to stuff and they're pretty aware, and there's so much out there that we as teachers have to keep up with that and um and not just teachers but choral leaders as well. We need to be thinking about repertoire and thinking about what works and presenting it. And I must admit, you've got to be prepared for things to also not sometimes go well, you know, if you present a bit of repertoire. If the choir don't like it, they'll quickly tell you that. And unless it's really close to your heart or it's something you've got to sing, I think you've got to be prepared to say, nope, that doesn't work, let's come back to that later, kind of thing. So yeah, it's it's it's so interesting to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

It's it is it's so funny you mentioned HMV because I I just I had forgotten about that place. I've forgotten about the basement. I remember I remember looking in the thing, exactly what you were suggest what you were saying about but you know, going in there and looking through all the racks and finding a CD you liked. I remember the bat wall with all the scores on as well, and all the music and all the piano music and everything they had. Oh and you just it it was such an amazing place, just you know, a cave of great things that you'd suddenly stumble upon.

SPEAKER_00 35:35

Yeah, and now you could just go on and set uh onto Apple Music or whatever and listen to all of it, which is just incredible. And uh so I think we we have to take that responsibility as choral leaders and teachers to keep up with that. Um, and you learn so much just from listening to stuff and and finding things that are gonna work. Um and and I I think it's also you can you can have repertoire which is just singing a quick song or a folk song or or something that's just quick and easy, and then you can have something that's a bit harder and and is going to take a bit longer to learn, and it's about looking through the year and thinking, right, so I've got I mean it's certainly at the beginning of the year, you kind of have to start Christmas stuff after half term, so you have to think, right, I've got maybe six weeks before half term, and I've got a concert. What can I learn in that time? And then what can I realistically learn for Christmas? What can I reuse from last year? So it's about choosing repertoire, I think, is a huge you know, minefield. Um, and it it's gonna be different in different sectors. I mean, obviously, if you're in the independent sector and you're doing a chapel choir and you're doing even song, you've got such a lot of programming to do. Um, but it's uh so it's gonna be different everywhere for everybody, but it's picking the right thing for your choir and something that you enjoy and can be passionate about as well. Um, but also actually, sometimes you have to do stuff, don't you, that you don't love as a musician, but you've got to do it, you know, and it's what is it's what's being done by whoever you're working with or or the repertoire you're given. Um, and if you go to do someone else's rehearsal and they're doing a piece that you don't actually like, you can't show that. You've got to just be passionate about it because that's your job is to lead the choir.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

But I think I I also think I think there's always something good you can find in every piece. Oh, absolutely, yeah. You know, even the pieces you would never attempt to do, or or the pieces you never think you'd you'd ever listen to, and you you know, even the music you don't really appreciate, you know, um you can always find something good about it. I think when you're when you're working on that music, particularly, I've conducted all sorts of things I I haven't known in you know so well I've had to pick segments of to work on, you suddenly think, Oh actually, you know, I quite like this, it's really well written. Or you know, have you got uh before we finish, have you got uh uh an anecdote or something funny that's happened to you over your career that you can think of that you'd like to share with us?

SPEAKER_00 37:59

Oh my gosh, what funny things have I done. I mean, I've uh uh I've done things where you kind of start playing something and it's in completely the wrong key. And or or you've I once did something which uh at the time wasn't great, but I'd sat down at a piano and the last person had transposed it, started playing it, and thought, oh what's going on? And then the student started singing, and that's when I realized, oh my gosh, it's too high. They're they're about to go, they're about to try and go for a note that they are never gonna sing, and then oh gosh, the choir have come in, and it's just like it's too late. I've got to keep what do I do? Do I stop or do I keep going? And I remember being in the dark, couldn't really see the piano, thinking I'm just gonna keep going, and then it was just and that was um a real learning curve to always check it's not transposed.

SPEAKER_01 38:55

That's funny because these electric pianos, of course, they could there's somebody who's been on there before you just had happens to play something and trans press the transpose button, and then you look at it, you think, Oh my, what are we gonna do?

SPEAKER_00 39:07

I also remember once playing a piano, and um it was an electric piano again. It was in a lovely chapel, and the pedal hadn't been working, and I I kept going because I could just kind of comp the chords, but then the next choir came up and the pianist sat down and they were they were quite stressed about it, so I was kneeling at on the floor trying to like press the press the pedal and hold it in for them because it was the loose connection so that they could play, and it was this wonderful piece. I can't remember what it was, I feel like it was a bit of John Rutter Christmas, and I'm there kneeling at the feet of this pianist trying to hold the cable in whilst the choir sung and she's turning the pages, and I just remember thinking the things you the things you do um to make music happen. Um it's great, you just do it, don't you?

SPEAKER_01 39:55

You do, you just do it, and and you know, you do it to the best of your ability, and you always try and inspire. And James, you're doing you know go on, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 40:03

I've g I've got one more that I've just remembered. Go on then. We we were singing, we were singing in Windsor Castle at Christmas, and we we had a group around the Christmas tree, and it's it was really hot in there, and this girl in the middle of the choir basically fainted, but because she was in the middle of them, she was being held up. So I was conducting, and I'm trying to say to the people on the front, don't move, because otherwise she's gonna just fall completely forward. And so we kept we had kept going so that it was like because there was quite a crowd of people, and this this girl just kind of was there, it fainted. Um, and then afterwards, we kind of had to slowly move to lay her down, and then the choir formed in front, and no one noticed, and she was obviously fine, but it was just one of those things where it was like, Oh my gosh, what's happening? Then you realise it, you have to adjust to it, get the kids to read your lips, as well as doing all of that kind of stuff, as well as being concerned about the well-being of the student. Um, but that's always quite a funny one, and I do always say to my choir, the worst thing that can happen is that you can faint, or you could just throw up or something, can everyone notice you? And I've never had anyone throw up during a performance, but I have had someone faint, so you never know what's around the corner.

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SPEAKER_01 41:18

Yeah, I've had a few of them, and in fact, you know, it I remember being on holiday at Christmas one year, and we happened to go to Disney and they do these amazing concerts every day, these Christmas uh concerts with an orchestra and a massive choir, and hundreds and hundreds of people, and they're always presented by a a well-known celebrity of some kind. And it was quite hot, and clearly it must have been quite hot on stage because literally every five or six minutes someone else would be wheeled off, and you'd watch them collapse on stage and then get wheeled off, and it was just like one at a time. And which one's going next? Which one, you know, must have there were loads of people, they're all piling up into the wings, and it's like they're ex they're expecting it to happen, and they're just waiting in the wings with the wheelchairs for people to collapse. It's awful, but it's you know, gosh, they you know they have to deal with that all the time. Anyway, James, it's been fantastic talking with you today. Thank you so much uh for spending the time with me and for um you know to to to just take out time to do this. It's really been great talking with you. It's been great, thank you for having me. Um thank you so much. The fabulous James Manwering from Windsor Boys School and the great work he's doing. He's a great guy, and I've known him for some time, and he's just so passionate about working with kids, and uh he does so much great work. It's really a pleasure to have him on the show. Well, that's about it for this week. Hope you've enjoyed the show. Please continue spreading the word. The more support we get, of course, the more choir directors we can help out there by sharing the amazing tips and tricks and experiences and knowledge we're learning from all these great people that we're talking to. Don't forget to like the show, review the show, and subscribe to the show. And I'll look forward to seeing you again next time. Goodbye.