Welcome And Listener Support

Speaker 0:03

Welcome to the choir director podcast, the essential resource for choir directors, conductors, and vocal leaders who want to build stronger choirs, run better rehearsals, and create outstanding musical experiences. Well a massive thank you once again for another incredible response to the show last week. It was it was just amazing. I had so many fantastic messages coming through. Thank you so much, and thank you for continuing to spread the word of the Choir Director Podcast. I'm so glad you're enjoying the show. We're getting to so many people across so many continents right now. Just incredibly exciting as a podcast host. I I cannot thank you enough. Please continue to spread the word, like the show, review the show. That would help me enormously if you could uh stick a couple of reviews on uh Spotify or Apple Music or wherever you're listening to this show, that would be really helpful. We're talking to some amazing world cast choral leaders and also some local community leaders as well. And it's just wonderful getting the the the understanding of how their choirs are working and how they teach and how they educate. And today is no exception. We are joined by Daniel Raaflaub. Now he's not just a choral leader, he is actually a choreographer who works with choirs and he helps them sing with clean ensemble timing and expression. And there's, you know, I know a lot of choirs who really struggle with staging and really struggle getting their choirs moving, and we're going to explore various techniques and uh and how to tighten those techniques up and to really help to try and produce confident staging and performing across our choirs. Please welcome my very special guest, Daniel Rayflaub. Yes, thank you very much. It's lovely uh lovely having you here today. And today we're going to be talking not so much about choir direction, but talking about choir choreography. Tell us a little bit about how you got into uh into choreography uh to start with, let alone working with choirs.

Speaker 1 2:18

Actually, I um first studied performing arts in in Vienna. So I always loved the stage and I grew up with choir singing actually. So my father was a conductor for choirs, so I grew up with it and with the boys choir as well. I was singing there for many years. So then I got the voice teacher as well in for modern music, and I just got in that because I think it's it's quite nice because I come from all these directions like acting, singing, uh dancing, choirs. So I just got in there. I started maybe 12 years ago, and it it's I just love it to work with these people and and to show them how to move, how to get the emotions out, how to yeah, how to create a story out of songs.

Speaker 3:16

And it's uh it's interesting because I I don't know a huge amount about musical theatre in Vienna. How what's the scene like? What is it like studying musical theatre in Vienna? Obviously, I know because I'm based in London, I know quite a lot about London, I know not about Broadway, but Vienna is not the first place on the map I think of when I think musical theatre. I think obviously I think opera and music.

Speaker 1 3:37

Yeah, I mean in the German part, you know, Germany and Austria and Switzerland. Vienna is uh an important capital for for musical. Uh and there are some good schools, musical schools, performing arts schools in Vienna as well. So I was at the university actually, uh, and it was Yeah, it was just great. So I think there are different kinds of capitals for musical. So Hamburg is one in Germany. Um Munich has uh a good scene in Vienna as well. So they are actually good musical theaters as well.

Speaker 4:12

And you you studied choreography. I mean, was it was uh was dance your sort of big you know, we we all think of triple threat, singing, dancing, acting. Was dance your was dance your big thing?

Speaker 1 4:23

What should I say? I think my my thing is since I'm young singing. So uh and sure I love acting as well and dancing. I had lots of dance lessons, all these ballet, uh jazz, tap dance, modern dance. So, yes, I know how to do it. But I think for to be a choreographer for choirs, that's sure it's important, but there are lots of other important things you have to know.

Speaker 4:52

Because it's uh it's about staging, isn't it? It's about the performance opposed to you know leg kicks and plias, and you know, it's about it's about how you move and how you get from one place to another opposed to full-on choreographed routines.

Speaker 1 5:09

Exactly. Yeah, it depends. Uh at some choreographies there is a lot of movement. But you know, for for me, uh a choreography for a choir is not is not really show. It's I try uh to to inspire and captivate the people with storytelling actually, and sometimes it's a very I mean a very small move, movement, and uh the whole choir is doing. So I think it's different because I know there are lots of choirs, they really do uh show, you know, show choirs, and I always say I'm not really a show choreographer. I could, I've done it, but but it's not my thing.

What Choir Choreography Really Means

Speaker 5:56

What is what is your idea of a show choir? Because there is this thing called a show choir, and I it frustrates me a little bit when I see a name of a choir that includes the word show choir when they're not actually a true show choir. Sometimes they're singing songs from shows, and sometimes they just use the name show choir because they've thought of a name that sh that that creates a sense of performance. But actually, what is a show choir?

Speaker 1 6:29

I think there is not really a definition. I mean I think it's the definition of the choir itself. So I would say um show choir is more like uh they really have some dance breaks as well, you know, where they have full choreographies. Uh kind of sometimes it reminds me of on Broadway, you know, where they just their legs are up, whatever. Uh and I don't think they are really into storytelling. They move uh I mean the movements are added to the singing to make a show, to create a show out of it, and that's what I think, but maybe maybe uh yeah, I'm wrong. I don't know, but that's what I think because you know you never know, there are lots of different opinions, and uh I think I'm I'm kind of between. I my my thing is just different, I think. So yeah, it's hard to say.

Speaker 7:34

It's it's interesting. I I I agree. I mean I I agree with you, and it's it is difficult to define, but I I I think when from those industry professionals I talk to, a show choir means exactly as you just said. It means that there is choreography. They they are not it's not about telling a story, it's about producing a show, something that's really spectacular on stage. A lot of barbershop um uh groups uh do this in some way, they're not true show choirs, but they do they do these amazing movements together which which are part of the music that creates a a performance element. I think more I think and I think what what you do, and I've seen you work, is is is outstanding and wonderful, and you're an incredible person to work with because you make it look very easy for people that aren't used to moving, for particular, particularly men, basses and tenors who hate to move and can't move and can't clap and can't click and all of those things, and I and I've seen many of them, and I'm sure they will agree with me if they're listening to this show. But um, and it's not all, I have to say that, it's not all. But but you you have this way of getting people to move without dancing. How do you what what is your what is your way of doing that? What is the first thing you do?

Speaker 1 8:47

Actually, can I just uh tell you an anecdote or a story? Because when I met your singers first in in Berlin, I think it was 24, right? Yeah, in Berlin when we met in so uh I sent 25, 25, I think. It was 25.

Speaker 9:05

Was it 25? I think it was 25.

Speaker 1 9:07

Yeah, yeah, okay. So I sent you this video where I tried to show the choreography, and normally I can't be really a serious person, but then I thought, okay, I have to be very serious, no laughing, nothing. So then I sent this, and then I met your your singers in front of the Philharmonie in Berlin, and the first thing they said, Daniel, that's you, right? We thought you looked like a like a very serious person, no laughing, nothing. So and I said, Oh, whoa, okay, that was maybe a wrong message. They were kind of afraid of me. And I said, Okay, maybe I should just clarify that. But that was quite funny. So, your question was what what I'm doing, right?

Trust First In A New Room

Speaker 9:56

What what do you do when you first get into a rehearsal room with a choir you've never met? How do you get them moving?

Speaker 1 10:03

I think the most important thing for me is, you know, because I yeah, sometimes I work regularly with the choir, then it's a different thing. But when I come in and they don't know me, it's trust is the most important thing. Um, so most of the time I just start with a warm-up with them. Uh actually it's yeah, just to get that they I mean that they move, you know, just in a group, that they get confident with everything, uh, do some exercises with with them and that they get used to me. And then yeah, I try to explain them a little bit uh what the idea is, but then I just start. And uh I don't question anything, I just go on because you know the thing is when I start a rehearsal and I don't really know the choirs, I'm excited as well. Because you never know how they react. So you just have to go through it and start and just take the atmosphere and the dynamics of the choirs. I think that's very important for me as well. Because, you know, you get all this feedback, even if they don't talk, you get you see their their faces, how they think somehow, and and then you just have to take them and to use it. And if you see somebody who maybe is a kind of hey, what is he doing? Then you just have to go on. I just know from experience that for example, when I yeah, when I work with a choir in Finland or whatever, so the first day is always great, perfect. The second day is kind of okay. Now they start thinking what I'm doing, but what is he doing there and then I just have to get over it. And if this is done, then it's just everything is working, kind of. But you know, for me it's uh I prepare myself yeah, quite exactly because I explore the whole song, so uh, and I think about the choirs who will be there as well, what they maybe can do, what not, what movements they can do, maybe so I prepare myself quite uh deeply, if you can say, like that, and I go through the whole song, through the voices, through the story, uh interpretation of the songs, through the background of the composer of the choirs as well, and uh and then I just have some pictures in my head. Sometimes they just come when I'm doing nothing, when I'm just riding my bike. They make boom, ah, okay, that's a good start. And then I just go on. So yeah, there's kind of a lot of preparation and trust I need.

When To Add Movement To Songs

Speaker 12:55

And from I'm I'm gonna try and ask you some of the questions that I think our choir director listeners will will be wanting to know. Because I think I think certainly in the UK and many choirs I know um across Europe and and the US and and and the Far East for that matter, of all across the world. Uh I could have made that very much much more uh succinct if I'd said that one thing. But um across the world, um I think choir uh choir directors are often wondering where to start, and and some choir directors have have an idea that you know we should put the movement in at the end, get them to know the song first, because you can't do anything with music in front of you, you can't do anything with lyrics, you've got to be able to move. And some people will do sections at a time and then choreograph it. Because I think it's one of the most daunting, one of the most scary parts of putting a performance together is adding the choreography. The music's almost easy in some ways for some choirs. But what do you what do you what do you think? When when should you put the choreography in? When do you put the moves in? As you're going through it bit by bit, or at the end once you know a piece of music well.

Speaker 1 14:02

There is no rule. I mean, it depends on the choir, on the conductor as well. Uh normally they know the song, maybe not perfectly, but they know it. And this is quite important that they know the song and that they at least can sing it. Maybe uh yeah, and by heart is good as well, because then you can just start with the movements. Sometimes I just start with the refrain. If there is a part that comes again and again, uh, I start with that, just that they get into the flow. But normally I then start from the beginning and just go step by step. And my experience says that if you go on, and then the the this the voice and the movements will connect, you know, because if there is a special movement that just goes with the lyrics and with the voice, then it goes into the body and the emotions will come out. So it's it's kind of all connected, and and then they even learn faster. That's what I experienced. And then it's always about repetition in the end.

Youth Choirs And Shy Singers

Speaker 15:12

Uh so that's maybe so it's by by association, of course, because if you you know sometimes the words and the movement go together and it's a way of remembering the words or remembering the movement, one triggers the other, the other, the other side. Um, I I think I mean my choir members uh of my own choir have have always I've always put the choreography choreography in afterwards we learn the piece because I I I I have to know that they are fully confident of the words and the music before they can concentrate on movement, because when you start putting movement in, something else goes wrong because they're thinking too much about the moves and so they forget to sing, and then if they're just singing, they forget to do the moves. And I think some people are better at syncopation and bringing things together uh than others. Do you find it easier or more difficult uh with working with a youth choir against uh uh an adult choir? Because you've worked a lot extensively with youth choirs.

Speaker 1 16:15

I as well, I think it depends on the choir. But I think uh youth choirs, maybe or children's choirs, maybe it sounds bad, but I think maybe they are a little bit more flexible.

Speaker 16:29

It's because they don't care as much, I think. They don't they're not conscious.

Speaker 1 16:33

Exactly. They just do, and uh you know, the most important thing is if you do a choreography or movements that you let go. There needs to come a time where you let go and where you just concentrate fully on the music, singing, acting, everything that comes together and don't think anymore. And I think it's easier for younger people to do that, but it doesn't mean that it's for everybody like that.

Speaker 17:01

So and without well without being too uh gender specific, because it's you know, we obviously want to speak for everybody, but I know what question will go. Do you think do you think men find it much harder than than ladies?

Speaker 1 17:19

Maybe maybe they are not that much used to it normally.

Speaker 17:26

Okay.

Speaker 1 17:27

I think that's the reason, but it's not always about yeah, it depends how long they are in the choir as well, but there is a a moment coming where it doesn't matter anymore.

Speaker 17:39

So how do we how do we how do we encourage them to or or not just not just men particularly, but how do you encourage anyone that's quite introvert, quite shy? Uh uh, you know, they they go they sing at choir, but they're not standing on a stage on their own as a soloist. And when you move, you feel more self-conscious. You feel like people are watching you when you're moving and you're doing a move that's perhap perhaps not natural to you. How do we make it easier for those people? Men, women, whatever gender you you associate yourself with, how do you how do you get those people to move?

Speaker 1 18:17

I mean, first thing is you need to catch them. You they need trust. Um they need to see that uh that you like what they do. Even if it's not that uh I mean, at the beginning maybe everything is very small and they they don't think they can do it, but the longer you do it, I'm sure about it, the longer you work with them, the more confidence you give them, the more positive you talk to them, you know. You you you can't tell them, hey, that shit. No. You have to always have to tell them, hey, that was good. Now let's go on, and then it always gets better. I think a lot is mentalist. Uh but uh, you know, I know it from cries who are kind of it depends on the culture sometimes a little bit that they are very fast in learning the music, but maybe kind of intro word, as you said. So it just takes more time, and then sometimes I just work on one on one short sequence, and and I do actually the acting. We just talk the lyrics, we go through the lyrics, and then we get some examples and they try to whatever shout once. And if they are a group, then suddenly it goes on. I mean, they just then start shouting whatever and they like it, and then we add the singing again, we add the moving again. So it's all about time and uh trust.

Speaker 19:51

Do you have do you have some uh tips for the very very beginning of a of a new piece uh where they've got the they've got the music sorted and now you walk into the room and we've got to get them moving very quickly. How do we get connected with the music enough to be able to move and to relax?

Speaker 1 20:16

Um how do you get it connected? I mean, but you do you have some I mean, will you have time for it, or is it just you need to have it in half an hour?

Fast Starts Repetition And Adaptation

Speaker 20:26

Well, I think I don't I don't think I've ever met a choir director that has enough time. Um because it's still never enough time. Even if you're planning for 12 months, it's still never enough time to get a perfect performance. But as yeah, let's just say we're in root in normal rehearsal, we're not we you know we have a little bit of time. Well, how how should we approach if you know if I were to have a brand new piece of of uh uh of music, we've just learned it, and now we need to add choreography. How do I get started?

Planning Versus Improvising In Rehearsal

Speaker 1 20:58

Normally I I mean accept the warm-up, that's another thing, but normally I I just look how they react, and then I show them some movements, just without the music, that they just follow me, and then I start seeing okay, yeah, they just go on, they do, and then uh and then I just add step by step the music, and we just go in, just go full in. We sing piece by piece and add the movement, and then I see how it goes, you know. But it's all I mean, I tell you, the most important thing is repetition, and even if you only have a short time, then you should adapt the song, maybe, or what what your goal is to the short time. You cannot make a a choreography for five minute piece into weeks, only if you rehearse every week. It's just not possible with a choir. So uh To answer your question, it depends on the choir, on the mood of the choir, on the trust they give you, and on the confidence they have. I'm totally sure. Because this affects everything I'm doing. And I I know exactly how I would start, and I will start, but it depends on how they react, you know. And and the m a very important thing is as well that the it I think it's even the most important thing, the connection between me as a choreographer and the conductor. If they trust me and I trust them somehow, then it's a very good team. And then we just can go forward, so then we can work musical-wise and choreographical uh choreography. How is the word? Choreography-wise, whatever, together, and then it just goes on. But you you just have to go. Keep going. There is not uh, you know, there is actually a thing that I was once in Cameroon uh with Oliver as well, with my good friend, so with a choir, and then we they asked us from UNICEF to to give a master class uh with some conductors. So I talked about choreographies, and then in the end, there was a lady coming conductor from a local choir, and she she told me, Hey Daniel, how can you find this movement? How do you do a choreography? Can you give me a recipe somehow? I I just need something. And then you know, I was very surprised because I saw this choir the evening before performing and they moved a lot. I said, What but what are you doing? You just move the whole time, and then she said, Yes, but this is all written in the music sheet, and then I said, I said, okay, I can't give you a general advice how to do it, because I think as well, if you want to do a choreography, there are no kind of no-goes. My no-go is that that I don't wanna if I say I'm hungry, then I don't do things like that. I just I don't want to tell the story as it's exactly written in the words. That's my no-go. But but otherwise, just be brave and do. That's what I think.

Speaker 24:33

That's great. I love that. And it's it's what's interesting, I think, as well, is is that I I've spoken over the years, I've spoken and worked with many choreographers, some who have an experience working in ensemble, some working with choirs, some classical choirs, some pop choirs, and then dance uh uh then dance teachers and choreographers that work in the pop world. And everyone is quite different in their style. And I've done a lot of um well, I've been a choral conductor for 16 years or so. Um I have worked in musical theatre for for many, many more years, um as well, just just like yourself. So I've produced and I've performed in in the West End and uh done lots of shows myself. So and the choreography is very different, uh, I think to working with with choirs specifically. Is there a is there a a best way, a best practice when you're approaching choreography as a choir director? Because some some would suggest that you kind of make it up as you go along, you have your ideas, and then you just get into the room and you look at the lyrics and you try and get the choir moving and you you create the the the movement and the choreography for the entire piece on the spot. And others others would suggest no, you have to have a bass plan, you have to have an idea if I'm gonna do that for those bars and that for those bars, the refrain is there. What am I that's what I'm gonna do at the end. Do you have a complete plan before you go into the rehearsal room, or do you do you improvise it to start with and then and then make it known that's what you're going to do?

Moving Huge Choirs With Preparation

Speaker 1 26:06

I have a plan. A complete plan, actually. It doesn't mean that that I will change something, but I have a complete plan and the experience is that when I have a complete plan, I will catch them. You know, if I if there is a choir and they never did a movement, how should I catch them and and get the trust from them? If I just start kind of uh, okay, now we just improvise and let's see what we do, because there is no normally there is no time for it. Uh and they they want to see what I'm doing, what my maybe signs are kind of in the choreography. Uh so uh my experience says no, and it depends on the choir as well. You know, if I'm working with a boys' choir, there is not it's different to work with them, so you need really to have a plan. And that's why I uh yeah, I really the preparation takes hours, actually. A lot of hours. Uh, because I know now in in these 12 years I'm doing this that some things just don't work. Uh it doesn't look good, it doesn't feel good, it's it's just it's just not what I need to create this atmosphere. So I need to prepare for myself as well, and for the choir.

Speaker 27:37

And do you find it easier working with a small group or or a mass group? Because I know you've worked with choirs, you know, you've you've done huge opening with hundreds of singers. Uh and it was only uh recently we were talking to uh Jen Bonner, who runs one of the rock choirs in the UK, and the rock choir are huge, they have you know 25,000, 30,000 singers uh split up in split up into many, many, many, many choirs. And sometimes they come together, and there are there are many organizations that do this, they have multiple choirs, they all come together for a a big sort of arena concert with thousands and thousands of singers. Now, how do you move thousands and thousands of singers or hundreds of singers or s or a or twenty singers? Is there a difference in how you do it and how do you approach a big project like that?

Speaker 1 28:27

I mean one thing is when I when I made this huge uh opening for the youth choir festival in Basel, it was I actually created a video for them. So as I did it in in Berlin, but there were 800 singers, and it was just even more singers, so they had to prepare themselves, and then we met in in maybe for half an hour in this at this place, and I was just I was just trying it, I was just talking to them, and and we just did it, and actually we nailed it. It was it was cool, but it needs preparation. If you only have a short time, it needs preparation, and uh, but for me, sure, if I have a a normal kind of choir size, between 20 or 80, whatever, it's kind of the same for me. So uh it's just if the choir is bigger, then you can you can create more beautiful pictures, more beautiful, you know, if some if a whole choir out of 80 does a uh a wonderful movement, like whatever, things like that, then it just looks amazing. If you have 20, it's a little bit different. So it's just you have to adapt the choreography a little bit. By the way, just about the question you you asked before, I think I the the choirs expect as well that I come with a choreography, that I know what to do, you know, and I owe it to them, I think. Yeah, that's uh yeah.

Handling Mistakes And Using Video

Speaker 30:08

And that's why you're a professional choreographer. That's exactly it. That's why you have to do that. Um it must be frustrating sometimes when you're watching choirs back that you've been working with and they do a performance and something goes wrong. Uh, because nothing is ever perfect. You know, I I've seen it many times. You know, you get as as a choir director, you you watch your group and you see everybody, you know, do a final movement. They all move to the left or they move to the right or they put their hands in there in the air, except for one person who either doesn't do it or goes the wrong way. In fact, actually clapping and moving side to side is one of the most difficult things to get a choir to do because people always start with the wrong side and they're often bumping shoulders and they're not even realizing they're bumping shoulders. Uh, how can uh how how how do we best deal with that as a choir director? It must be very frustrating, I'm sure, myself included, for to as a choir director. We have to extinguish the human, I suppose.

Speaker 1 31:07

Yeah, yeah, that's true. Exactly. That's the thing. Uh you know it's maybe a little bit uh a difference. If if I if I if I'm uh creating the choreographies, it's normally it's not about going left or right. So uh soprano, alto, whatever tenor they do, different things. Uh maybe they move around in on the stage as well. So it's maybe not that easy to see it, you know. But it's always happening that somebody does something I can't say wrong, because it if it happens, you know, then it happens. I always tell them, please have fun, go full in, and if something happens, it doesn't matter. You know, if you show all your emotions and the song just captivates the audience, and that's much more um I mean worth than just being perfect. That's what I think. So if I see them, you know, and you have to know if you look from the front at the whole choir, if somebody does like this and somebody maybe not, it's hard to see it because you just have to look exactly there. So, you know, it happens, nobody's perfect. And if you start like that working with a choir, then you lost them.

Speaker 32:35

Yeah, yeah. You've got to you've you you've got to understand that that happens, it happens in performance, and no one performance is ever the same. You know, it's no two performances are ever the same. And uh I've seen it myself. I've I've you know I and it's been caught on camera. That's the that's much worse, I think, when it's caught on camera. Because when you make the mistake, you're the person that's done it. Every time you watch it, you see yourself doing it. It's really hard to get over that. But I always say to people in the end, it doesn't matter, it's a split second moment that is past, and it probably isn't as noticed as you think it's been. Do you think it's a good idea? Sorry, I was gonna say, do you think it's a good idea to to watch yourself in action? Do you think it's good to perhaps record uh video your yourself rehearsing uh choreography to watch yourself back?

Speaker 1 33:20

You mean to to watch myself or the choir? That they watched it.

Speaker 33:23

No, no, for a choir to watch themselves in rehearsing. Oh, okay.

Speaker 1 33:27

Yes, it is. I mean, if you uh there are some uh different points. I think uh sometimes they do a choreography, but they have not the connection of all you do, you know. They do a movement and they think, okay, hmm, how how does it look? What is the what are the other singers of the choir doing? Uh so sure I try to tell them what this by the way, this is an important thing as well. I always try to tell them exactly what kind of movement I'm doing, why I'm doing the movement, and finally it's their thing to make their own story out of it, you know. So if they I show them the movement, and it's nice if they look the same, but if somebody thinks, okay, this movement means something else for me, it's okay. So they have their own thing, uh emotion finally, and then it gets a wonderful thing. If only if everybody believes in what they are doing. So, but it's good, uh, you know, for example, when we have a concert with one of the choirs here, we always watch the video later uh of the concert, and then they can see what's really going on because sometimes they do a movement and say, What's that? What are you doing here? I can just see it in their faces, but I don't react on it. Only if they ask me. Uh, and then they see, ah, okay, this fits. The whole thing just comes together and it really fits. And I think this is very important because then they they get trust, you know.

Speaker 35:06

So important. The whole trust, the whole trust thing is so important with with singing and and with choreography. You have to trust your leader, you have to trust your choreographer.

Speaker 1 35:16

And actually, it's good as well. I would love to work more with mirrors as well. Uh, sometimes there are big windows, so you can see it as well at night, because then they see exactly what they're doing if they do it the same as the others do. But on the other side, I think if they always check if they do it exactly the same as the others, it's not good as well at the beginning, because they need to do the they need to find their own way how to do it.

What Audiences Want Now

Speaker 35:43

Do you think audiences want to see more movement? Because because tr traditionally choirs are very static, and certainly with classical choirs, they're very static. More modern groups, uh more groups that are doing more popular music and musicals and community choirs and so on. Do you think audiences want to see more movement?

Speaker 1 36:02

Yes. I I mean you know, maybe it's that's my sure it's my thing as well, but I know that people, audience normally they don't want to see uh in a a cappella program anymore that the choir is standing with the music sheet. Maybe it's okay, but the thing is, the big thing is if you don't stand there with music sheet, your emotions, your expression is getting bigger and bigger. Uh that's a huge difference. And even if you work with moving and stage presents without really moving on stage, the emotions and the meaning of the song will be better. And you know, with the voice crier as well in Basel, where I'm working with Oliver, I mean he's the conductor. So uh we try to go with time, you know, with the time to create something new. Because we don't we want to be a modern voice crier. That just you know, when I'm sitting in the audience, I love it if I get if I get to see pictures, emotions, uh uh that's what I want to see, you know, and sure, I'm sometimes I'm very happy to to see a classical performance of an oratorium or whatever, I love that as well. You know, I grew up with it. But still I think time times have changed, and I think as well, if you uh the programs of a whole concert should get shorter as well. That's why I and with my uh conductor friends, especially Oliver, we try to shorten some songs as well, which is kind of uh difficult because of the rights, copyrights, but we just try to make another flow in the concert. So maybe one song would be five minutes, we just take three minutes of it and go on and try to uh make a kind of a whole program show stage through, choreographed through in 50 minutes, and then you just go out and say, Okay, cool, but still you heard a bach or something else, but it's just included in everything, and that's what I think you should be brave. Just doing it. There is nothing wrong because if you never try things like that, you will never do it, you will never know how the audience reacts on that.

Career Highlights And Powerful Stories

Speaker 38:39

Yeah, yeah, amazing advice. Fantastic talking with you. Do you have what what what have been your sort of your career highlights? What sort of projects have you enjoyed most of all in your career?

Speaker 1 38:51

You mean as a choreographer or in general?

Speaker 38:54

As a as a choreographer, but you can tell me in general too.

Speaker 1 38:59

Okay, uh what is a highlight? I mean for me, every every concert when I see you know, I see it as a live school as well, when I work with young people, especially, or sure with adults as well, but I see it as a live school as well, because you can give them a lot they can use for their lives as well. How to maybe how to feel comp confident. You can learn this on stage, I think you know that anyway. So, and so when they have a concert, I'm always proud of them. So that gives me a very good feeling. Uh, so every concert is kind of a highlight, but for sure, these concert tours I'm doing with uh the boys choir as well, and are always highlights. And uh to to work with 800 people in on one place, that's a very big highlight. But I have to say as well, there was a uh it was last year I was in Finland with Vox Aurea, and there was this uh Piedmont Isbe uh Children's Choir from California. They are uh cries, they know each other, so they were all together in in Finland. And uh the conductor of this uh children's choir from California wrote a new piece about uh immigration in in California, and it was really a true story, and uh I choreographed it through this half an hour, and I've never seen so many emotions in in in because for them it was very personal, you know. So this was a wonderful moment because then you see it just comes alive, it comes alive, people just are totally in this story, the singers are in it, and this was a very a very uh captivating moment for me as well, because I thought, yes, now you got it. That was you made it, that was wonderful.

Speaker 41:09

Yeah. Well, it it's been fantastic talking with you, and you've you've you've brought out so many important points um that I know so many of our listeners will will really appreciate. Thank you so much for your time today. I can't wait to to work with you again at some point. Uh I'm sure our paths will cross and we'll we'll do something together. It's it was it was such a great experience, and uh I know what a huge difference you make to so many people. So thank you so much.

Speaker 1 41:34

Yeah, thank you for inviting me. It was nice to talk to you.

Speaker 41:40

Another great interview for the choir director podcast, the fantastic Daniel Raaflaub, all the way from Basel in Switzerland. I'm very interested to understand how you deal with the challenges of movement in your choirs and staging in your choirs. Do get in touch with us. You can contact us via the studio links in the uh in the podcast notes. Uh you can even leave us a voicemail, so just leave us a message or uh send us an email. I'd love to hear from you, I'd love to uh hear your questions, I'd love to hear your experiences. Of course, if you have anything to share with us, uh perhaps you'd like to come on the show and talk about your clients uh and the way that you educate your clients and uh to help with any tips and tricks up along the way. We would love to hear from you to do it. Well that's about it for today. A massive thank you for tuning in as always. Don't forget to please like, subscribe, and download, and listen, and share, and uh, help us spread the word of this great wonderful core world that we work in. The Choir Director Podcast is getting to many, many, many thousands of people worldwide now. Please, please help us to do that. Hope you have a great week, everyone. We look forward to seeing you next time. Until then, goodbye.