Welcome And Listener Milestone

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Welcome to the Choir Director Podcast, the essential resource for choir directors, conductors, and vocal leaders who want to build stronger choirs, run better rehearsals, and create outstanding musical experiences. I'm Russell Scott, and before we dive into today's show, I just want to say another big thank you to all of our listeners. Wow, we've now reached over 60 countries worldwide, and this is only episode 12. And I can actually hardly believe it. Episode 12, 12 amazing weeks of uh this brand new podcast, which is really designed for choir directors to help them, inspire them, and to reach more and more people to share the amazing knowledge of this great community we work in. So thank you so much. Please continue to review the show. We're getting some great reviews now. Uh please review that on all the platforms that you're listening on. And don't forget to follow, subscribe, download, and share it to everyone you possibly know in this amazing community we work in. Well, on today's show, we have a very special guest indeed. This is Miles Finn. It's Mr. Finn as he's known on social media, a choral director, a music educator who's worked in the US extensively with ensembles and choirs, and indeed a show choir. And he's recently moved internationally. He's moved with his family to Croatia in Europe. And he's working there in music education and producing shows, and he's got a huge social media following, having sparked interest from his posts in content and uh everything to do with choir and musical theatre and the realities of music teaching, uh, as they have their plans ready to go in Croatia. And I've been really excited to say this. Please welcome Mr. Finn. Hey, how's it going? I'm super excited to be here. You're so awesome. Great, great to meet you. Um, Miles, tell me tell me a little bit about your life and uh first of all, how did it all become it's Mr. Finn?

SPEAKER_00 2:13

Oh, it's been kind of an interesting journey. Um, so the I'll I'll start with the social media stuff because that's where a lot of all of us began. Um, it would have been in the fall of 2022. I was announcing what musical we were going to be doing, and I always tried to do it in kind of a fun and exciting way. Um, and that year I decided that I was gonna put all of the musicals up on the board behind me where I would always write my music theory stuff or whatever. And so I was going through day by day by day, and I was ripping down what musical it was not going to be. And um, we got to the final day and then decided that I was going to make a big spectacle of it. And I recorded a video of myself, and I was like talking to myself, similar to like uh I don't remember the character's name from Jurassic Park, but one of the characters from Jurassic Park. Anyway, um, so I was talking to myself and uh that got recorded. And since that day, my social media has kind of just like blown up. And so after I had recorded that um musical theater introduction sort of thing, what I decided was, hey, I should probably keep this going with some sort of with some sort of warmups, or maybe I could just record some rehearsal or something like that. And the thing that really landed with people was when I was doing different choral warmups, when I was doing different, like, hey, let's take this pop tune and and turn it into a uh you know, eight-bar repeated choral phrase. And uh people seemed to really, really like that. Um videos that that people really liked were like when I did like Viva La Vida by Coldplay or Um Hey Jude by the Beatles. People really liked listening to that sort of stuff. So the social media um kind of took off from there. Um but yeah, that was that was kind of like the origin story of it. It was all based around what musical I was doing. Um, that's kind of like where where all of that started. And then and then from there, it just kind of um authentically just like became a little bit more me. I got to show a little bit more of of myself in my classroom, which I was excited about. Um whatever people were seeing in front of the camera or what whatever they were seeing on their phones was exactly the way that I acted with my students in front of the camera. I was always kind of goofy. I always wore, you know, like goofy shirts like this. Um, and uh just like to have fun with with my kids. And I think that's a that's being authentic in a classroom was was kind of my my big thing, is kind of my big thing, um, and making sure that that students are having a good time and um obviously still learning the things that they need to learn, but doing it in a fun way was was always my goal. And and I think there were a lot of people that that seemed to dig into that well.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

It's funny. Uh knowing I I trained, I trained classically, but but but I specialized in musical theater ultimately. So it's interesting talking to you about musical theater, especially in classrooms. So this is one of the one of the reasons I wanted to get you on the show. Um did you did you train in musical theater yourself or was or did or did it become a passion uh and then transitioned naturally?

SPEAKER_00 5:08

So um training in it would be a very, very light way to say it. Um I got to do some musical theater when I was in high school. Um, and then I think when I was in my undergraduate, I did Kiss Me Kate, and I was like some sort of like background character or something. But um then it was it was kind of like a job requirement for every job that I had after that, where it was like, hey, you're gonna be the choir teacher, but you're also going to be directing the musical, and then you're also gonna be directing the show choir. And then I mean, I was joked around that I was basically like the next step was gonna be being the bus driver. Um, but I I got a chance to to learn more about musical theater by directing it. Um, as a student of it, I I wasn't necessarily too enthralled with the idea of figuring out the inner workings of it. Like I didn't necessarily know anything about blocking, or I didn't know anything about set design or costume design or lighting design or sound design or any of that stuff. Um, and I really got to develop a passion for that while I was directing it and got to learn more about the inner workings of it and how to be successful with it, but more importantly, how to make it so that the kids and the audience members both have a have a great time with it while we're doing it.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Do you do you find yourself drawn to musical theater now as a grown-up, as an adult? And and having you know worked on shows a lot, do you find you're drawn to that? And and is it solely in the classroom? I mean, do you what what interests outside of the classroom? Is it still musical theater?

Why Musicals Work For Students

SPEAKER_00 6:37

Um, I I love singing musical theater songs. Like I was just going to prepare a tune for uh a gala that our school was going to be um hosting called um the song is It All Fades Away from Bridges of Madison County. Oh, like one of my all-time favorite, just like golden baritone tunes to sing. Um, so I I mean I I love singing musical theater, and I and I think that that art form uh is so much fun to perform. Um and then my wife and I also had tickets to the Des Moines Civic Center. We would go and we would see any show that would come through. I think we we got to see like 10 to 12 different shows per year. Um, and so we got to be more on the consumer side of it, which was really, really exciting because my wife was actually my choreographer. And so being able to go and and see a show like that that's put on at a professional level and get to kind of like think into okay, what was the director's mindset while they were putting all of this on was so much fun. So being able to be a consumer in that regard was fun. Um, but I think I'm I'm definitely drawn to the musical styles of certain composers, definitely with musical theater. Um, but yeah, I think it it it has been more fun to dig into now that I have gotten to teach it and being able to know the inner workings of it and know how much work goes into putting on a show like that.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

Yeah, and it's and it's amazing how how popular musical theatre has become, especially, especially for kids. Um, because there was a time when, well, it's still it's still difficult, I suppose, in in terms of accessibility because of the the sheer cost of ticket prices, particularly here in the UK, in London, West End, and in Broadway, the ticket prices are outrageous at the moment. Um so that that restricts, it does, it does restrict people from going. But kids have they are just they just have this imagination and they love the songs, they hear them, they see them on films, and they just want to sing them, they just want to get on stage. And that's a wonderful thing to see. I'm I um I I MD'd um a number of musicals over the years. Um, and uh as you say, you you sort of go through your favourites, your your it changes. You you you have your passions, you have your styles that you love. And I think for kids, um interestingly, I worked on a production of Come From Away last year.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

And I'm just about all-time favourites, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

Amazing, and I did it in a I did it in a in a school, in fact, and um it was amazing watching the the girls and the uh just just working really hard at making it something very special. Um and with with young people particularly, it's not about being perfect, is it? It's uh it's about doing it really well and enjoying it and loving it, and that's what really helps them grow, I think. I'm just about actually just about to start working on um production of Sweeney Todd, which I'm MDing. And that's another, you know, another amazing work, chalk and cheese come from away to Sweeney Todd. Um, but isn't it amazing how how you can inspire young people in a such a diverse uh uh amount of of musicals that are available and and just with the imagination of those of those kids they can take to the stage and be themselves and put their own character into it.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Yeah, that for sure. And then I also like am so I I always admire the students that are excited about the back end of things, like the students that are excited about hey, I want to be the person that helps design what the stage is going to look like or what the the whole costuming scheme is going to look like. And we're gonna go about these specific color color schemes and things like that. I'm always so enthralled by those kids that are excited about that. And that's the wonderful thing about musicals is that you know, it isn't just the singers on the stage. You know, choral music a lot of the time, it is just the singers and the director on stage. Maybe you've got a couple uh collaborative instrumentalists, but most of the time it's going to be um just the the singers and the director on the stage. Whereas musical theater, you have such a huge community of people that are working behind the scenes to make it all work. Um, some of these productions that I was doing with a relatively small school in Iowa, we had over 120, 130 kids that were working on one single production. And that's insane. Like that's a that's a whole community worth of people that is working for one goal, and that is to you know produce a produce a nice product. And all of the other wonderful things that come from that, the the connections that you get with community members, the connections you get with the students and the directors, the the family members, it's it's amazing how something like that can bring a community together like that.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

And working on a musical, um, you get you get the best of both worlds, I suppose, particularly with with working with young people, is to is to work with the ensemble and you get to work with soloists. How do you how do you approach that? Because there's always this feeling of uh some people missing out. You want to give equal opportunity to as many people as possible, and everybody gets to be in the in the chorus, everyone gets to be on the some in the ensemble. How do you make that as exciting as as a soloist on stage?

SPEAKER_00 11:49

I oftentimes spend a lot of time with with the ensemble first, and that that tends to be my priority because the soloists I I assume are going to be wonderful because they have been cast to be that person, right? They they have put in the work already to be amazing on stage. We assume that they're going to do the work that they need to do as an individual, because a lot of the time they have the stake of their self-embarrassment, whereas the ensemble, you know, like they have a little bit more comfort in the collective, they have a little bit more comfort in the larger group. Um, and so I like to make sure that the ensemble shines equally as much as the soloist, just to make sure that um they're working as an equal part rather than this kind of like secondhand thought. So I actually start with the ensemble a lot of the time. Um, and then from there I think it's easier if you're talking about, you know, hey, we're gonna make this sort of musical phrase, or hey, we want to make sure that we're we're taking this sort of timbre, like, hey, we want this to be really, really bright in your face, whatever. A lot of the time your soloists are going to be picking all of that stuff up as well. So if you start with your ensemble kind kind of being your your bass sound, um, a lot of the times your soloists are going to take that, they're gonna pick that up and they're gonna be more successful because of the way that you started with the ensemble.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

How do you how do you decipher between uh an ensemble and a chorus?

SPEAKER_00 13:16

That's a great question. Uh I think the ensemble has a little bit more action. I think the ensemble has it has a little bit more um motive behind them. I think of a chorus as being a little more stationary, maybe set behind the stage, or or hey, this this is going to be. I think of like the Wizard of Oz has a has a lot of those moments where there are singers that are off stage singing into a microphone, things like that. That could be filled by a chorus relatively easily. Whereas your ensembles, I think they have have to also have some acting fundamentals with within their ability. They have to be able to do some more acting while they're on stage. Whereas I I think the chorus can maybe get a get away with being a really, really good singer and being on stage. Maybe, maybe that's the wrong way to approach that, but that's that's kind of how I would think about that.

Ensemble Versus Chorus On Stage

SPEAKER_01 14:03

Yeah, I think I think you're I think you're right. I think I think that I would agree with that. I think I think the difference is about one is static and one is engaged in the in the drama of not just music drama, but the drama of the play side of things on on stage. Um and that's I suppose another question is you're you know, you work with 120 students. How do you get 120 students on stage? Obviously, some of them are behind the scenes, but if you've got a big amount of I was talking to another another guy uh a few weeks ago, and we were talking about this because he had a production um of uh I think it was Lame, it was either Lame is or Sweeney Todd as well, actually. Uh, and he had a hundred and hundred kids involved in this production uh and on stage. And I was talking to him about how on earth do you include a hundred people on stage in a school? Because schools don't necessarily have the biggest stages, do they?

SPEAKER_00 14:51

No, no, absolutely not. And I think that you really have to trust the people that are working on building the set pieces um to utilize every square inch of that stage and and make sure that that every every space is utilized in a well in a way that is going to make the most sense for the audience to be able to see everybody. I always I always when having these conversations, it's making sure that when grandma comes to see little Betsy Sue, we need to make sure that Betsy Sue is going to be seen wherever grandma is sitting. Um, and so that's that uh ends up taking a lot of time and effort from the people that are building the set pieces, making sure that they are well aware, like, hey, I need to make sure that we have levels, I need to make sure that we have this blocking figured out well. And so we're working collaboratively. Obviously, if I'm the one that's doing the blocking, and then my my stage managing people are the ones that are building the set pieces, that we're making sure that, hey, we are going to have this amount of space vertically, and then I'm gonna work on the space horizontally and make sure that we fill it in so that we are able to get everybody in. When I was doing the Wizard of Oz, we had, I think, probably about 40 elementary elementary students in a high school production. And so we were able to work pretty easily with them because it's like, hey, let's just put the elementary students right in the front, and then we're able to see all of those cute little shining faces, and then we can put the high schoolers behind them and make sure that we are able to fill in all the space that we need. But that would have been one that we would have had probably 75 to 80 kids on stage at one time in a relatively small auditorium on a relatively small auditorium stage. So you you have to get creative with how are you using your vertical space and things like that. But man, those problems are so much fun to solve and and to be able to work on with uh other adults, but also like let letting the kids be able to have some sort of input on that, which is great.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

Um, yeah. There can be there can be a big difference, I think, in um in standards of school productions. Um, I've seen some amazing, amazing things in schools, and I've I've also sat through things. I think that's that's the way I've that's the way I've done I have sat through productions and then I've watched amazing productions. They're the two ways of explaining it. Um, how do you reach high standards um with young people, particularly that perhaps uh don't have the experience? How do you reach those standards and how do you stop yourself from getting frustrated because you want something to be really amazing?

SPEAKER_00 17:20

That's a great question. And I think honestly, the the most important thing is starting with the singing and starting with the music musicianship, musicianship skills, making sure that they are going to be comfortable making music um in any capacity, making sure that even those elementary school kids understand, like, hey, you have to sing this in tune. Um, and that's obviously part of the audition as well, and auditioning um with a standard in mind, I think is important while you're while you're getting things started. And every every I'm not gonna say that every standard is going to be different, but the level at which you can no, I'm not even going to say that. I'm gonna say that you can you can achieve any level at any school. I think that's that's the that's the best way to to approach it. Um, that if the teaching is there, you do have the ability to make it so that you can make a brilliant production. Sometimes it's gonna take a lot more work, definitely. Sometimes it might take years of work to make the production that you want it to be. Um, but understanding that if you are starting with musicianship in mind, if you're starting with what are your tenets of music, are do it has to be in tune, it has to be rhythmically accurate, otherwise your audience is gonna tune out right away, right? And you want your audience to be able to like enjoy it orally as well, as well as make it visually pleasing. We want it to be visually pleasing, obviously, but but making sure that it's gonna sound good, I think it has to be the first priority. And that's obviously coming from a choral musician, but you know, I think that that's a good standard to set, uh, especially when it comes to something like musical theater.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

I think it's very difficult. I think also I I find uh if if I've been prep MDing or conducting professionally to then go into a school, it's interesting because you have the slight frustrations because you want as perfection as possible. But equally, I it's so inspiring watching young kids who really want to be on that stage and deliver something. And that is sometimes eve sometimes even more exciting, isn't it? Uh than working with with something that you just turn up and you know it's gonna be great from the start.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And building something from the ground up where you know that it's gonna be it's gonna be some blood, sweat, and tears to get it to where you want it to be. Um, that sometimes is more rewarding to me than than going in and knowing that it's gonna be perfect right away. I have had those productions where I feel like I there's not a lot of work that I have to give you to make this beautiful. Let's let's take it to the next level. Then obviously that's that's what you do next. Um, but but those where it feels like uh a grind to get through, and then you get to see the lights go off in these kids' eyes, and it's like, yeah, this is why we're doing this, is for you to have this rewarding experience. That's that's the most fun in my eyes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

And you've you've directed both choir and big musicals. What what lessons have you uh from from staging and theatre pacing has made your choir rehearsals better and vice versa? What have you sort of learned from both sides that that you can apply to both? Because it is a it is completely different running a choir as a choir director to to emptying a musical.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Um, I like to think a lot about taking the temperature of the room and making sure that yes, you can you can have an idea of exactly what you want to get accomplished in that day, but you also have to understand the individuals in front of you. You have to understand that that maybe it was a really, really hard day, and maybe it's gonna be something where we have to just kind of like pull back the reins a little bit and focus on on something that's gonna just keep them engaged, keep them excited about what they're going to be doing, rather than, oh, I know it was a bad day, but we're gonna push through. And sometimes there are gonna be those days where you where you do have to be like, hey, I understand that this is where we're at, and and being vulnerable with them and being like, hey, I'm feeling that way too, or or or whatever that is. Um, but then understanding that you can still approach things if need be, right? So so taking the time to to pause, take the temperature of the room, understand what's going on, and then take the next step forward, I think is is equally important. Figuring out what that next step forward is something that I think you learn through more experience. That was something that that took me forever to figure out. My first three, four years, I was I was so bad at I wanted to get these exact goals accomplished within a rehearsal, whether it be musical or or whether it be a choral rehearsal. Um and then I realized that that I wasn't getting those goals accomplished and I was losing relationships with the singers that I had in front of me. So I learned that it it is so important to be able to relate to your students. At a human level while still holding expectations, but understanding that sometimes it's it's going to need to just breathe. Sometimes it's going to need to, you're going to need to revamp, you're going to need to rework, and having the tools in your toolbox to be able to do that on the fly is something that you develop over time.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

And you've you've got a huge fan base, which is amazing on social media, which has developed since 2022. And that's an amazing thing to see, and you must be incredibly proud of that. But you've you've achieved that with some level of comedy, uh being slightly quirky, slightly crazy, slightly funny. And they they are great videos to see. How do you maintain that comedic charm?

SPEAKER_00 22:46

So I I I think that's that's pretty authentic to who I am as a person. Um I think like like I was telling you before we started, like this is this is a shirt that I would wear on a regular basis. Like I just wore a Star Wars shirt out for our vacation with our family. Like I th I think the idea is that a different Star Wars shirt, I promise this one's clean. Um but I think the idea is that I when I'm recording, I am very authentic to who I am as a person. Um, and that is also gonna reign true with who I am in front of my singers on a regular basis. Because no, that all of those videos were one minute from a week at a time, maybe, maybe two weeks at a time, maybe a month at a time. Um, and so people were only getting a one-minute glimpse into who I who I am as a person, um, which is so hard to obviously be able to like just justify like who you think who you think a person is, but but I think that whenever I was in front of a camera, I was making sure that I was being authentic to myself. Um but more importantly, I was being authentic to who I am as a choir director in front of my students. So the glimpse that you were seeing in in my warm-up videos or whatever that is, is exactly the way that I would be working with my students on a regular basis. Just being authentic to to who I am. If it's if it's goofy, if it's having a uh a big cheesy smile on my face while I'm doing it or making quirky sounds or things like that. That's that's who I am. And that um really helps me relate to my students on a on a on a regular basis. It was it was a lot of it is a lot of fun to work with my singers.

Respect, Intonation, And Keeping It Fun

SPEAKER_01 24:19

I I love that and I I love the idea or I I you know I I like to to keep some kind of comedy element in all of my rehearsals, no matter whether it's working with kids or it's working with adults. And I think I think one of the first things you have to do when you get into a room, especially with with young people, is is to show a bit of personality and to have some fun with them because then they will start trusting you because they would be engaged. Do you do you think that a lot of um when you think about schools and you think uh a lot of musical directors, a lot of heads of music, there are a lot of um teachers out there that run choirs in school? What what do you think of the non-negotiables when they walk into a room for a rehearsal? Because I it is taken very seriously at schools and and I and teachers have a lot of pressure on them as well. They've got to get things done, they've got to keep the room quiet, they've got to, you know, they've got to progress. What are the non-negotiables for running up um a rehearsal um and keeping up that that comedy value just to keep them engaged?

SPEAKER_00 25:17

That's a great question because I think that if people lead with comedy, a lot of the time it ends up being that they are showing this mentality of like, I'm pretty loose, like I don't really care what's gonna happen in rehearsal. And that ends up leading to its own problems in and of itself. Um, and so I think the the non-negotiables I would say are your students have to respect you, obviously. Like, and I'm not saying that you have to demand respect from them or anything like that, but but you have to you have to be able to gain their respect in a way in a way that um is showing them, hey, you are the master in the room. Like, obviously, like you know that because you've gotten all of this experience. You have gone through and gotten the education and and you have you have done these things to like garner that that um level of knowledge that you have to be the teacher in the room. Um, but they don't know that. They're high schoolers or their middle schoolers or their their singers that that maybe are meeting you for the first time or are trying to test the waters and figuring out who you are. I I think I I think right now I'm talking specifically to those people that are starting out with with a new group because that that is such a a hard place to be in. But um I think with any ensemble, the idea is that you need to um make sure that you you start with that respect in mind. And respect we know goes both ways. You need to make sure that you're respecting them back. Um, that was something that I that I struggled with as a as a young teacher of just being like, nope, it's my way or the highway, and I don't care about your opinion. Like I probably didn't actually say that, but the idea is still there. Um and being able to understand that no, you you do have musicians in the room with you that you're working on, um, that you're working with, sorry. And uh the the next thing I think is is holding your tenets for the music making that you want to have uh in the back of your in the back of your mind. So if if you're working on a piece that you have a very specific RL image for, making sure that you're not letting those things go, making sure that you're still pursuing, hey, this intonation has to be exactly where I want it to be. I I always intonation was my was my number one thing, which I think it should be everyone's because uh an audience will sometimes forgive rhythmic inaccuracies, an audience will sometimes forgive uh mispronunciations, things like that. But an audience will never, ever, ever forgive intonation issues. That's one thing that that little grandma watching Betsy Sue will even will even pick up. So um intonation was always the the first thing that I was that I was um that I am harping on. Um the next thing uh is again sticking to those sticking to those tenets. Um then I'm going into musicianship and it's making sure that from there we're making a beautiful musical phrase, we're making it with with good tone, we're making it in a way um again, that's gonna be in tune. I'm gonna continue to harp on it being in tune all the way throughout. It's it's gonna be like tenant one, and then it's gonna be tenant four, and then it's gonna be tenant eight, and we're gonna keep bringing it back because it's so stinging important in every rehearsal that I'm doing. Um, but yes, uh so starting every rehearsal with with a level of respect, um, finding a way to stick to those tenets that you have. Um, and then I think from there it's how do you make it interesting? How do you keep it in a how do you keep doing things in a way that that is refreshing to the students that you have in the room? How do you uh bring new things in? How do you introduce a concept that maybe you've already harped on? Like if I'm talking about intonation as as my number one key, how am I going to talk about it rather than just like pounding on the piano and saying, hey, you know, sing this? You have to work your way around it a lot of different ways. You have to play with is it a timbre issue? Is it um a support issue? Like, what how do we need to approach this in order to make sure that the tenant is still something that we are going to um keep really, really high in our in our mindset? Um but yeah, keep trying to find a way to keep it fun, I think ends up being one of the one of the harder things, especially for people that maybe have been doing it for a long period of time. Um because I think sometimes it's a little bit easier to get stuck in in this is the way that I've done it forever. But this is a totally new group of students, especially if you're working with middle schoolers and high schoolers. They are very different than they were 10 years ago. They're very different than they were 20 years ago. It's it's uh it's it's ever changing. And I think we as the educators have to be able to adapt to the students that we have in the room.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

And I think I think for for many schools that that do a production every year, they're going to see different students every year come forward to be considered, to audition for roles. They're going to see them one year older, the little ones come up and they gradually, and then that we lose the the ones at the top as they leave school and so on. So it I yeah, it's it's they have to continue to adapt uh when they're when they're directing. And the it it's it's an absolutely imperative that the teachers uh keep listening to their students every year. Don't just assume, oh yeah, that person will do that role, that person will do that role. Keep listening to new people, the new things that they're that they're bringing to the table.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

Right, for sure. Yeah, because there are going to be students that all of a sudden get it. There are gonna be students that all of a sudden understand this is this is how I'm going to approach this, or find a little bit more confidence in themselves, or find a little bit more comfort in their voice, or whatever it is. And there are so many changes that happen from year to year. Um, it's pretty astounding.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

Now you've you've recently moved from the US, because obviously we've really we realized our listeners are going to realize that you are not from Croatia, which is where you're where you are now. And um and you you you have your own podcast, which has been very successful for the last few months, telling people about your travels and how you've how you've transitioned yourself from the US uh to cr to Europe. And um, I bet your students were very excited. I bet they thought, my goodness, I've got we've got this American dude uh who's come across to teach us. I bet they they must be super excited to work with you, aren't they?

Starting Over In Croatia

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Yeah, it's been super fun. And it was it was funny, like right when I first started, there would be kids that would just like kind of pop their head in the room and just like, oh my god, and walk away like, yep, that's me. Hey, let's let's talk. I'm a real human, please. I'm not just the guy on your phone. Like, let's have a conversation about it, which has been super sweet. Um, and then they have just gotten to know me as this, you know, weird and quirky guy that likes choral music. So here we are. Do you think uh do you think the accent has helped? Uh I don't know. Sometimes I wish my Croatian was better. That's what I was struggling with. Good lord, Croatian is a hard language to learn. What made you what made you decide to move to Croatia? So uh my wife and I had actually thought about coming to Dubrovnik uh for our honeymoon when he got when we got married. Um and we had been looking at teaching internationally for the last couple years um and never really done anything seriously with it because we were loving where we were at and we knew that we had a lot of good things going. Um and then after my daughter was born, my daughter is two now, almost three, um, we had said, hey, we we better either do it now or not do it at all. Um and so that was kind of the big impetus for getting us getting us started on on really, really searching more heavily. Um, and so when we were going through the process of finding a school that works for the two of us, because my wife is a school counselor. Um, so that is is it's a blessing and a curse that there are two of us that are looking for a job. It's a blessing because a lot of the time schools are very attracted to a couple that is excited to come and be with them because they only have to coordinate one apartment rather than coordinating multiple, you know. Um, but it's it's also a curse because it's it was uh it limited some of the openings that we were able to look for. Um, and so we narrowed in on, I think, like one or two different places. There was one other place that we had looked at, um, but this was the only place that we applied to, which is the American International School of Zachar. Um, and we got on an interview probably a week after we had applied. Um, and then we had, I think, two more interviews, and and then we decided, hey, this is going to be the thing for us, and we signed a contract soon thereafter. So uh we've loved it. We moved in August and have been here since then. We've gotten a chance to explore a little bit more of Europe, which has been wonderful. I think we've always kind of had a longing for being in Europe, uh, which has been amazing. Um, and to see our kids get a chance to explore Europe um as little American kids from the Midwest getting a chance to go out and explore, you know, like, hey, let's go see a castle. And they're like, what? Not a cornfield? Amazing. Let's go check something out. Yeah. So that's that's been really, really fun. Um, yeah, and and truthfully, if if there was one thing that I think we were really, really focusing on, it was giving our own children a very, very unique experience. Um, so approaching it more as a more as a father than as a choral professional. That was kind of my goal of just making sure that I um was giving them the absolute best experience that that I could give. I will say that when I was uh directing choirs in the States, uh a lot of the time I would be gone every weekend from January to May, um, and not around my family, which is not a priority of mine. A priority of mine is to be the best father that I can be. Um and this has absolutely given me the chance to do that, which has been incredible. Wow, that's that's fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

That's lovely to listen to. Thank you for sharing that. That's yeah. Do you think do you think it's uh do you think it's different teaching internationally than it is uh in Europe to teaching to teaching in the US?

SPEAKER_00 34:52

Definitely. I think um the international school system itself is is interesting. There are um one thing that my wife and I have have recently been talking about is the turnover with students um and faculty members, in that there are embassy kids that will come in and they know that their parents are only gonna be there for three years. And so a lot of the time they don't make very deep friendships because they understand that they're going to be leaving in in another two years or they're they're not going to be staying for very long. And so um the relationships that they make, not only with their peers, but also with with other teachers and and the way that they connect with people sometimes is a little distant. Um, and so that's been something that we've really been working on because I I'll tell you with with students from from central Iowa, you knew that those kids were going to be there forever because their parents were there forever and their grandparents were there forever. And not always, but that was a lot of the time. Uh that that was a case a lot of the time where it was kind of like a generational thing where these people all lived in the same city and they grew up in the same place. Whereas the international school system, it's a it's it's sometimes it can feel like a rotating door, both with students and with parents and with faculty members. Um, and so that's that's been a little more difficult for us to get used to because we were used to being able to um understand that we were able to have a relationship with a student for a long period of time. We would meet them in middle school. My wife was a middle school counselor, and so I got to know a lot of the the singers in in middle school and got to work with them pretty closely. And then as we worked into high school, I got to see them, like we were just talking about, develop into the the wonderful young people that they are and got to see them, you know, take lead roles and in things and all of that. Um, and so yeah, that's that's been a definite change for us since we've been here.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

Do you um do you have favorite musicals? Going back to your to your musicals, do you have favorite that favorite musicals that you like to like to work on, particularly that work well for young people? Because I know I know lots of um lots of heads of music who would listen to this show will be thinking, what should I do next? What works, what doesn't work, you know, have you tried this one? Have you tried that one? What are your kind of go-tos? What what would you recommend as uh as the really great productions that that can work well for big for big groups?

SPEAKER_00 37:13

So that's tough because I think a lot of a lot of the decision on on what show you should do has to come down to who you have in the room, both as students and as as the director, because I think that there are gonna be certain directors that are gonna be wonderful with everything comedy, and there are gonna be certain directors that are gonna be wonderful with anything that you would consider a classic. Um I was fortunate when I was directing that every year we alternated between a um a more modern musical and a more classic musical. Um so we did The Wizard of Oz, and then the next year we did Footloose, and the year prior to Wizard of Oz, we did the Addams Family. Um, and so you know we we went through a lot of different phases on um what what we were going to what we were going to do and and also got to kind of dip our toes into a lot of different styles, which was fun. Um, but if I were to say one musical that I probably had the most fun working on, the Addams Family was incredible. That was just such a beautiful show. Uh, we got to meet Andrew Lippa, the writer of the show. He came uh to Indianola and got to watch our opening night, which was incredibly nerve-wracking. But he was there um and got to have a wonderful conversation with the students afterwards, which was great. Um, the music in that is great, the comedy in that is great. Um, I think kids love the creepy dark stuff right now, which for better or for worse, uh is a lot of fun to work with. Um, but if I were to say one musical that I think is is kind of slept on right now, but is is an absolute joy to put on, um, it's the 25th annual Putnam County Spelling Bee. It's so stinking funny. It's very funny. Like it's very inappropriate, and I love inappropriate humor, but so take that with a grain of salt. Do you speak six languages? I do not speak six languages. Okay, six checking. Yeah, I speak one, let's say one and a half, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it's a great show. We actually did that coming out of the pandemic. Um, and so we double cast that musical uh just in case one one cast member from either cast got sick so that somebody else could fill in. So it's a it's a small cast, it works for things like that. Um, but there's just some really, really fun movement, especially if you've got some, especially if you've got some uh really just quick hitting actors and actresses that can improv quickly or gel with people around them. If you don't know the show, there you actually call audience members onto stage to be contestants in the spelling B. Um, and that element of that is so fun and and kids interact with people so well. I think I actually just saw Daniel Radcliffe on the Broadway, I don't know if it's on Broadway right now, but uh on a professional show of that. He was he was on uh as a speller, which was funny. But I love that show. And uh there's some beautiful, heartwarming moments, but also some incredibly crude humor and some super fun music that goes along with it as well.

SPEAKER_01 40:16

How do you how do you work with large groups of soloists? You mentioned double casting. Do you always double cast a show? Um, because it's it's hard enough to train one cast uh to the highest standard possible. Often um schools particularly want to double cast to give everybody a chance, and of course, if somebody's off sick, uh they've got somebody to call upon. Do you always double cast? Do you always recommend double casting?

SPEAKER_00 40:40

So that was the only show that I have double cast for the purpose of just in case with what was happening with the pandemic. We knew that just in case was a big possibility that we would need to sub somebody in, and sure enough, we ended up having to sub somebody in. Um but I I don't typically double cast. I will talk about that show specifically. We ended up rehearsing every other day with each cast. So I would have cast A rehearsing on Monday, cast B on Tuesday, and then cast A on Wednesday, and we continue to alternate that. Um and that went from January to April, end of April. Um, we were doing that pretty regularly, which was which was a lot. Um the that worked okay though, because um if I found that something didn't work with cast A, then I would fix it with cast B. And then we would make sure that we were on the same page with with both casts, so that no matter what show the audience came to, because we ended up doing two shows with cast A and two shows with cast B. Um, no matter what show the audience came to, they were going to they were going to enjoy because we knew that we were going to still keep them um at that standard that we were setting.

SPEAKER_01 41:55

Yeah, it's it is hard, and that that sounds like a relentless schedule. Yeah, it was a lot. So what's what's next for you? What's uh what are you working on at the moment? What's next? What are you looking forward to next? What's the next big challenge?

SPEAKER_00 42:09

Ooh, big challenge. Right now, I'm actually working on starting a community choir in Zagreb. Um, I'm working with my another music teacher, a colleague of mine at the American International School. Her name is Lana Skorgatic. Oh, I like the accent. I'll try my best. Uh she's Korean. She's wonderful. Um, an incredibly uh talented musician, uh, both an instrumentalist and a singer, does wonderful work with uh with singers in in the school. Um, is always working on something new, which is amazing. Um, but we're working on on putting together a community choir here in Zagreb uh for people that are either well trained and love the music that they're doing or um wanting to get into it for the first time. So we're trying to approach just a pretty broad uh swath of people and and allow anybody that is that is interested to come sing to come sing. Um because I think that's something that I'm not gonna say is lacking in Croatia, um, but is something that that I'm excited to help bolster along a little bit more. Um Croatia has the um UNESCO protected uh Klappa singing, if you've heard of that before. Um it's beautiful. Um, but that is typically only four to eight singers, sometimes 12, sometimes 16. Um, but that's a pretty small group of people compared to you know choral ensembles that that I have seen both back in the States and and here in Europe. I've I've seen, you know, obviously upwards of 60 to 80 to 90 people on stage for for choral ensembles. But um so being able to offer a new opportunity, and I think um with my history of of working with singers in in the states, I think that I that I bring a a fun approach to music that I think people will be excited about. Um, and I honestly am just excited to continue making music. Um this time. With adults, which I have not made music with adults since I was a senior in college directing a church choir of 10 people. So this will be a this will be a fun opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 44:11

Have you got any idea of what music you're gonna tackle first?

SPEAKER_00 44:14

Um I think we're gonna start with something pretty attainable. Um I think we're probably gonna start with uh probably more contemporary pop music, something that I know that they'll be able to pick up, something I know I'll be able to write an arrangement for, um, and go from there. Um and then if it ends up developing into, hey, we've got some incredibly well-trained singers, we have the ability to tackle something a little bit more difficult, then maybe we'll start digging into digging into some. I'm not gonna say actual choral music, but choral music that I that I grew up knowing and loving. You know, I one of my I was just listening to my my bucket list playlists and you know, choral pieces that I want to conduct before I die. Um, and I have several of the Bachmotets on there. So I would love to get to the point where it's like, hey, we have a we have an ensemble that's that's worthy of a Bachmotet. I think that would be super fun.

Final Thoughts And Listener Messages

SPEAKER_01 45:06

Well, I wish you all the very best with that. And you are in a such a you know, what a beautiful country to be working in. I I had the pleasure, I mean I mentioned as just off air earlier that uh I traveled to uh to Croatia last year for the first time, and it was stunning. Just the most beautiful, beautiful place, lovely people, and just a beautiful country. It's incredible. It's been so much fun to explore. Well, good luck with everything. I can't wait to hear more about what you're doing. I'll we will certainly keep in touch, and it's been an absolute pleasure talking with you today. Thank you so much. Amazing. Thank you so much for having me on. This is such an honour. The wonderful Miles Finn. It's Mr. Finn, as he's known. What a great interview, and wow, so inspiring really to hear about his great work and the things that he's doing right now, the projects he's working on, and of course his aspirations. Uh, we all have aspirations, and it would be great to hear more from you guys out there. What are you up to? What are you taking part in? What preparations are you making for the rest of the year? What projects have you got? Have you got an interesting story to tell? Please do get in touch with me at the studio. You can find us online by going to the choir directorpodcast.com. And you can click on the studio link there and get in contact with us. You can leave us a voicemail, send us a message. It would be great to hear from you and do connect with us, of course, on social media. Well, we've got some amazing, amazing interviews lined up for the next few weeks ahead from more incredible and inspiring choir leaders just like you. Well, don't forget to like, subscribe and review the podcast. Follow us on social media, and until next time, goodbye.