Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Welcome to the choir director podcast, the essential resource for choir directors, conductors, and vocal leaders who want to build stronger choirs, run better rehearsals, and create outstanding musical experiences. Well, here we are for another episode of the choir director podcast. This is episode 13. Thank you so much for tuning in and for the continued messages I'm receiving of support. And just telling me how much you're enjoying the show. That's so fantastic to hear, and I am enormously grateful and so glad you're enjoying it and passing all these great tips and all the advice we're receiving from these great guests that I have on the show. And today is no exception. I am joined by Johannes David Wolf, a Berlin-based choral director and artistic director of Fokkerhelden, the Children's and Youth Choir program, originally founded by the Berlin Philharmonic, upon the initiative of Sir Simon Rattle and Simon Halsey. And we talk today about what it really takes to build a rehearsal culture that young singers want to be part of. The small rehearsal habits that create big musical results and practical ways to keep choirs accessible when backgrounds and confidence levels vary. Well, a huge welcome, Johannes, to the show. Thank you so much for coming on today. Where are you at the moment?

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. I'm in Berlin right now. Have been traveling for the past two days, but I'm back now in my hometown. That's great.

Choral Space And Singing Together

SPEAKER_02 1:34

And we we met a few months ago at the Berlin Philharmonic. What a wonderful project that was. Tell me a little bit about your experience there. How indeed how was it for you?

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Well, it was this big project called Coral Space, you know, like uh this project where yeah where loads of international choir work is happening. Um and not only in Berlin but in different cities in Europe. Uh and and we met there um for a Christmas concert, and you you picked you know a wonderful set of pieces to yeah, to to have like the the most uh Christmas, joyful Christmas experience uh that my choir um who joined there um had ever. Um they they're still talking about it. And um I don't know, this this this whole experience of you know having international choirs meeting, and they were so different. I mean, right? You know, when they sang their solo bits, it was such a such a uh colourful and such a wonderful um experience to see all those different people. And yeah, as I said, we're still talking about it.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

I think it's one of the wonderful things about working with choirs internationally, um, you know, bringing lots of different types of choirs, different nationalities, uh, you know, just different styles of choirs and bringing them all together for one, you know, occasion that's sort of mutually experienced from everybody and from every angle, we are all sharing the same the same thing. How did you get involved with your youth choir?

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Um so the whole project is organized by by Gent, uh, who you know of course, and and we have been doing things uh uh and projects, concerts with him over the past years, and he has been very kind to to ask us to join. Um, because he uh yeah, he's been following our work, and we've been around for about 12 years. Um I started in the Vokalhelden with with uh uh with the job of being a piano accompanist at first, and um 12 years later I'm being artistic director. Uh and and he has been he has been just wonderful to yeah to to to follow us and to ask us for for wonderful projects like this.

Joining Vokalhelden And Building Trust

SPEAKER_02 3:46

So when you when you first uh started with the choir, what was what was your experience at that point and how how did it transition into where we are today? How did it all begin?

SPEAKER_01 3:59

So yeah, so the the choir that you worked with as well in in this wonderful Christmas concert was the Vokalhedden Jugendchor, the Youth Choir. And they were not around from the start because it really started as a children's chorus program, and we didn't have old enough kids to have a youth choir yet. So that came about a few years later, about 2016, and that was the time when I came back from England because I studied uh choral conducting with uh Simon Halsey. And after I came back, I um started the youth choir because by then we had enough children, uh enough young, you know, adults that had been in the program long enough to found their own choir. And it was quite hard at the beginning because um, of course, in in that teenage, you know, age of teenage years, it's it's very difficult to uh to find out what you want and what you you know what you want to do with your life. And so we had a you know a few a few years to establish the choir, really, and now it's full of about 60 to 70 really enthusiastic young people. Some of them have been there for 10 years, and uh it's just wonderful. But it's it's a long time, and that's what I find. Founding a new choir takes years to establish.

SPEAKER_02 5:19

I think I think you know, I I think there are so many choirs being formed, and I think after after the pandemic, after COVID, uh I think lots of people wanted to sing, they wanted to, you know, express uh their feelings, and singing was such a great output for that. What uh what was what was your experience like all those years ago during the pandemic? What happened for you?

Starting A Youth Choir Takes Years

SPEAKER_01 5:45

It's been six years, right? So I happened to be in England uh when when the first lockdown in Berlin happened, and it was so unreal because I I get got all these messages from home saying, Oh, you know, no one's on the street anymore, you know, people are are really, you know, um going into lockdown. And in England, it was still everything was open. I attended concerts, I had this massive sing-along with Simon, Simon Helsey, uh doing Marlb II uh sing-along event with with the LSO chorus. Um and it was just unreal. And when I got back, um I came into like this dead town of Berlin, no one was on the street anymore. And even the flight back was really surreal. And then five, five, exactly five days when I, you know, was back, I got COVID. So I was one of the first ones. Um, yeah, that was my experience. And then we tried to rehearse online. I think probably you did the same thing, trying to establish, you know, rehearsals also with young people via Zoom, which worked with the very young kids better than with the older ones who were like fed up with computers very soon. Um, but we yeah, we we we we you know we tried to we try to hold spirits higher.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

I think we all I think we all tried very hard, and I think we all became a bit fed up with uh with online rehearsals. I I remember doing it, I won't dwell on this because I think times have moved on, but um, yeah, I can remember doing I had three sessions a week on on Zoom and we had some social stuff as well going on, and I and I kept that going for 18 months solidly. Uh and uh it was exhausting. And what was funny, of course, is at the beginning uh they all said you know, everybody that the government was saying everything, well, this will just be for a couple of weeks. It's uh you know, it'll soon pass two years later. We're still going back and forth on Zoom and off Zoom. Goodness, you know, crazy things. Tell me a little bit about your your background, how you got into music and conducting, and also you've been working with uh with Simon Housey, a wonderful, wonderful choral conductor.

Pandemic Whiplash And Online Rehearsals

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Um my father has been uh a double bass player uh all his life, and um so I grew up with music making um a lot, and he actually played with a ballon fill. So that was my my background. Um but also uh music has been a huge part of my life uh ever since uh playing the piano from you know younger years, and then I had this wonderful experience to discover playing pop songs on piano by myself. No one you know told me I just found this Beatles songbook uh on the shelf of my mother's you know office, and and uh uh she yeah, she had this book, and I just tried to figure out myself how to do that because I only had been classically trained and I knew about triads and and all that, but you know, being like 10 years old and having no one to tell me, oh, please do that, or you have to do it like this, was probably the the best uh the best way to um discover music making of my very own. So I had always this pop music thing and classical music thing um parallel. Uh I was at a school where where there was lots of choir work happening and wonderful support. Um if you were interested in choir music, this was uh a good place to be. And then there was uh when I started studying, which was music theory, I I got interested into music theory uh because I wanted to understand you know what symphonic music would be and what what it what it really meant and how to understand it better. Um and then uh I I was asked by my singing teacher if I wanted to play piano at this education program of the Berlin Film. I was like, should I really join? Because you know, this is like my father's working space. And but because it you know came such a different way around, I was like, why not? And so I became this piano player for for a little group in Moab Beat, which is one of the districts in Berlin, and uh just started there as a piano accompanist. And Simon was involved in when when the vocal hadn't were established, so I got to know him and I had his book. He has this, you know, I think it's only published in Germany. I I don't know if it's if there is an English version of it, um, how to how to really be a choir conductor. And this is like the the one of the how few how-to books that I own. And um, so I knew him and I and I knew his name, of course, and I was very excited to to meet him because he introduced himself to you know, he's so polite. Um he you know, he would he will shake hands with every accompanist and every volunteer that is around. And so we got to talk a bit, and and um I I talked a you know, I I asked him if we could talk about you know what to do next. What what what would he advise me? And and he ad advised me either to apply for Yale to study choraconducting because I hadn't studied choreoconducting as like you know a master's degree, uh, or he he could also um recommend to apply for Birmingham, where where he was like for 12 years, you know. Um and or the third thing he said like, or do it like me and Simon Rattle, just carry on like now, you know. And I uh decided to apply for Birmingham, and that was the best decision because I had been an Anglo Anglophile, is that a word? Um I I loved you know like English culture so much, anyways, um, that it made total sense to spend to spend some time there and study choral conducting and choral-wise, it really set me up for my professional life um as a as a conductor um in Berlin when I was back then after the masters. So this was one of the very, very good, you know, and and really life-changing things.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

I can remember when I was in my teens sitting in the Royal Albert Hall in London, and I remember watching several amazing uh concerts, choral conductors uh choral uh choral concerts as part of the BBC prom. So I'd you know I'd go and you know watch Belshazzar's Feast or a Marler 2 or a Marler 8 or a you know, even a bait over nine, and I remember being completely uh, you know, emotionally drained from watching these pieces and listening to this these amazing musicians playing. Do you remember the moment you you listened and saw something on stage and thought I want to do that? Because I the funny thing for me is that I don't ever remember sitting there thinking, I want to do that or I'm going to do that. I think I I I would never have imagined doing what I do. Um I always had a obviously passion for music, I've been in music a long time, uh like you, studied music, and but you you sometimes don't have an exact idea of what's gonna be at the end. What's the what's the thing that's gonna drive you forward? Did you do you remember what that moment was where you thought, wow, this is happening now, I'm gonna do this?

From Pop Piano To Conducting

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Yeah, there were there were several. Um that's a really interesting question. Um so I remember um I so in my in my younger teenage years and also older teenage years, I really wanted to do pop music and I tried to be a songwriter and have a I had a wonderful band, and we also traveled Germany, and it was a really good experience. But there was also in the back of my mind always this, you know, oh huge interest for classical music at the same time. And um I remember sitting, it was 2012, I think. So I was in the beginning of my 20s actually. Um so quite late. Um, I was I I sat there um uh at the at the podium of uh of the of the Bern Philharmonic Hall, where you know, which they opened for symphonic concerts, right? The the the place where the choir sits. But when there is no choir, of course, this place is space for audience. So uh there was Tchaikovsky Six, uh conducted by Christian Tielemann, and the tympanist was actually a step-in. And that tympanist is, I think, from Hamburg, um, and he um played without any sheet music. And so there was this crazy connection between the tympanist and the conductor, between the this huge, massive orchestra, and I sat right behind the tympanist, and that was a moment when I where I thought, okay, this has to be it. This, you know, this has to be become a huge part of my life. Um, and that was one of those moments. Then sitting behind the Berlin radio choir, uh, when I watched a masterclass in 2014, um, them them singing Mozart Requiem was an eye-opening experience. And actually, before that, Wagner operas of all the things, um, I don't know why, but I became a huge like fan of the whole ring cycle when I was 20. Um, because I watched some some rehearsals of the of the ring, and and I I remember that I hated you know Reingott when I was 18, because I was, I don't know, anti-everything probably. Um But with Siegfried, where they are actually really comic scenes, and and then I you know I got got the hang of like the leitmotiv music uh and leitmotiv technique. Uh that was something that fascinated me and that wanted me to study music theory. And the last thing is uh which I which I always like to like to say um Brahm's second symphony, uh, and then you know there's one particular theme of the of the um lower strings in in the first movement, uh which is like the one of the most beautiful um you know pieces of music, and those moments I think added up to being like, I want to do this, and this is actually instrumental music, not particularly choral music, just some of it. And and now I'm yeah, I don't know, my life is. It's interesting, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 15:39

Because I uh I I didn't come from a classical background to start with. Uh it was only in my teens that I found classical music and now have uh a huge knowledge for or particularly orchestral and obviously choral choral music, and we always go back to classical music, don't we? Because it obviously everything originates from classical music, is where it all began, all how it all started. How do you think we can inspire young people to listen to classical music more um to to help them understand pop music?

SPEAKER_01 16:17

Yeah, that is uh that is a very good question. Um I'm you know, one of my one of my jobs is also to introduce young kids to when they when they visit a a rehearsal of the battlefield, for example. And um I when I when I have it's it's always about like a hundred kids or between fifty and a hundred kids. And I try to look in their into their faces and ask me exactly that question because you can only tell when you see them in front of you, right? And um it's such a it's such a huge uh challenge to actually um to pick them up from where they are right now. Um I think there is something that we need to we we we need to try to find um uh I only I only can think of the German word now, Bezugspunkt, um a point of reference uh in their lives, which can be quite a long way to what is happening on stage when there is an orchestra playing, but trying to find something that is already part of their lives. And yeah, and and and maybe you know, talk about that, talk about something very unexpected. Oh, I'm trying to I'm I'm really trying to to to get it more more focused, but maybe you know what I mean. Just to just to uh build a connection with them and then actually try to, you know, uh uh speak to them uh and and getting able to to tell them this is the greatest thing that you can experience. But it it can be a very harsh, a very, very long, long way, um, and a very hard way to do that.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

I think one of the difficulties with with uh with classical music uh for young people who don't come from a classical background is obviously the most classical pieces, the symphonic works particularly, obviously in the operas and and choral pieces are very long. You know, you a piece of pop music is three to four minutes long, so you're asking someone to listen to Abraham's symphony, yes and perhaps even just one movement, and it's gonna be ten minutes long. Um that's and there's quite a lot of information that's coming in. That's why I think traditionally young people have always said, Oh, classical music's boring. Well, actually, it's far far from boring, we know that. And actually, everything we do to this day is inspired by classical music, and often when I'm with my choirs and we're we're we're doing some contemporary music, uh any pop pop music, even musicals music, uh, I will say, Oh my goodness, that's Bach. Or, Oh, I can hear Brahms in that, or you know, you you can hear and you could you have, as you say, you have reference points. But I think it is it for me, I think it's about connecting with classical music emotionally to be able to feel it.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Absolutely. Absolutely. And um, it's it's funny that you mentioned the the you know the duration of a piece because that's what I when I when I hold these introductions, for example, what I always try to say is that this is going to be very long, and you're not able to, you know, swipe it away with your fingers. Yeah, and and I always ask them to to try to um you know to to to get involved into what is happening. And you know, we have this little interview with a musician beforehand, so there's actually someone from the orchestra talking to them, and you can ask questions, and there's there's of course so many visual things that are happening, and maybe you know the percussion will be interesting, or any instrument um can be very interesting apart from the whole acoustic experience. Um, and there is actually this quote from Danny Barenbäum, I think, um, where he says, the more you give as a listener, the more you get back. And of course, you know, there will be there will be always you know kids that fall asleep during rehearsal or be adults be very uninterested. But I also try to address and adults as well, and I always try to address them and be like, maybe try not to fall asleep, maybe try to challenge yourself uh to actually you know stand you know stand the the zeitgeist uh of you know having only eight seconds of attention span. Um this is this is your chance to actually do something.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

We learn we learn so much from from listening. I mean, I I think we you know part more more about listening than actually singing. I think obviously technique for for singing, but we in terms of performance, in terms of expression, in terms of feeling, we learn so much. And it I think you know, despite all our training, I think you'll probably agree that we've learned probably more from watching other amazing conductors and and the greatest conductors and choral directors in the world. We've probably learnt more from watching them than we than we've learnt in in all of our academic years.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Absolutely, and I mean this is also um of course a huge thing for society, just listen to each other, not only in music. And I I would also add, you know, you learn a lot from bad performances as well, if if there are any because of course uh you can also learn how not to do it. But I totally agree with that.

SPEAKER_02 21:43

So when it comes to rehearsals, talk me through talk me through your your your own sort of techniques and your own approach to rehearsals. What's important to you in a rehearsal, especially with with young people?

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Yes. So um you mean when uh when we start a new piece? I mean it could be any piece. I mean it could be something you're working on.

SPEAKER_02 22:04

You know, what do you do? You walk into the rehearsal room, you've got to engage them, get their attention, and get them ready to sing, and then you've got to run a rehearsal and keep them for 90 minutes or two hours or whatever.

Helping Young People Hear Classical Music

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Yes. So with with my with my smallest uh smallest uh or youngest kids, you know, which are like eight to ten, I start the rehearsal with uh a little a little talk because I really want them to have the feeling of we are having a conversation rather than then there is one guy telling them what to do. And so the first thing I do is is uh either talk about something that is really, you know, um something that that that that has come up that day or ask three questions of what was the you know the worst thing that you experienced uh over the last uh the the the the the last week is there anything that got really on your nerves and then they will raise their hand be like my you know my I don't know I I I had an accident with my you know or I I I had a fallout with my best friend or something you know um of course not not terrible things happen but but of course you know maybe something terrible in their lives and then after that after we got all the bad stuff I asked like okay now you know can we can we have three things that were really wonderful last week and then you know so we'll like be like last week I had my first ice cream of the year or you know and then so we have at least you know a little bit of conversation about you know yeah school or family or whatever their their lives uh um have you know for them right now and I think um this is a good start starting point because as soon as we have have that done we have we had you know we we share something that is outside the music and so we can we can connect also as as you said you know emotionally um without having without having you know this moment of now we you know now we learn something new and and then it it's quite easy to transition to a warm-up and then it's quite easy to transition to whatever we're working on. There was this this piece um that we did last last season um and the concert was a few weeks ago for a big sing-along in the Berlinfield with 2,000 kids singing and I chose a Danish piece um and I knew and I know you you had the the you know this podcast with our wonderful Danish uh colleague as well you know Jonas Rasmus and the the other day right um and I I loved the piece so much it's it's a folk song it's called Iskovens duvis still ro I'm probably still very bad at pronouncing it but so we had people who you know nailed the pronunciation and the kids just didn't like it at all. It was so hard and all you know everyone above 18 loved the piece and everyone you know younger uh in in in the in in the choir didn't like it and so I really started to you know there's sometimes those pieces where you're really convinced that this is a good idea to do and then you get so such a big resistance and it was such a good um experience in the end because I made a deal with them I said well we we need to do this piece because we sent this out to all all the classes in in Berlin that are attending our concert and we cannot say hey you you s rehearsed that in vain and we're not doing it. And we do we'll do it um every week but we'll do it you know if everyone gives their best and try to focus uh on the language and the music we can you know move on and do something that is more fun to you so I I try not to talk down the music but I when I when I and that this happens very rarely but if they really you know dislike a piece and you know Yankee is like no I don't want to do this there is there is ways you have to get creative um to uh you have to to create to sell them that this is gonna be a good a good piece of music and in the end it was wonderful but it was a really long way to go um but this is maybe a very extreme example when I introduce a new piece and it's no matter you know which age group is to have something that really inflames their creativity. There's this German word begeist begeisterung which is like be ghosting put a ghost into someone right so um and I try to be really begeistered about something and say either you know this is the best piece that we will ever sing or in case of our Christmas program you know we have this wonderful conductor from from London that is joining us and he has put put together the most wonderful Christmas music before even having you know sung anything of that because you know even with with people being skeptic they know there is someone here and and he's the guy who runs the rehearsal who is actually really convinced about what was happening and and over the next weeks we can try to hand that begeisterung over to you. But uh it's it's very often that I try to start with something outside the music because I think um it's it's maybe closer to people who who only sing once a week.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

I think uh I talked about a long time um it's it's it's really interesting because I I talk talk talk to a lot of choir directors and we we often talk about how do we engage our choir how do we how do we get a response because with adults as well not everybody likes every piece you do and and you have to try it's the choir director's job it's the choir director's job to lead and to enthuse and inspire it's very disheartening I think for a choir director very difficult for a choir director when his audience when his choir or her choir obviously um are you know are not liking the music because it may it it is it is disheartening it's really hard to find the motivation to teach when you you're not getting anything back. How do you deal with that? I mean you as you say you get creative but can you have you got some tips that you can you could give our choir directors listeners to to help them engage their audience whether it's adults or or youth choirs.

Rehearsal Openers That Build Belonging

Winning Over Sceptics With Humour

SPEAKER_01 28:26

I don't know I don't know about your process of getting to know new music and building a relationship but but I think the the really you know superpower is to have a very very strong relationship to the piece that you're doing. Because I I feel like when I have that it's really unbreakable. You know anyone can can come and try to doubt it and and I'm gonna be I'm gonna be strong enough to to hold through every you know skepticism. It's it's uh so so that that's that would be my first strategy to really engage with of course the piece maybe the text as well not maybe definitely the text as well um and find something that I myself have a huge connection to um and this and as soon as that happens no one can harm me I feel and the second thing is and this is especially with larger groups um to really manipulate be be very manipulative as I said when you say this is the best piece that you've ever sung it's probably not true. There might be a greater piece you know in in a few months time or there maybe there had been a greater piece in the past but now this is the really the greatest piece believe it or not you just don't know it yet um and of course this sounds like some some bad you know salesman that that tries to you know sell something uh sale sell something um but it's actually true right um to have uh to have these manipulative moments no one is really no one will no one will uh be unhappy about that because there's nothing to lose in being manipulated in a choir rehearsal or in a concert introduction when I when I hold concert introductions you know for for for uh audiences for for the for the evening I also say sometimes like this will be the best moment in the concert um so you better not miss it and of course it's not true there there will be hundreds of moments but I I try to I try to um to tell them a story maybe they don't even believe what I'm saying but they but they will be um entertained and and there we you know and and this this is a maybe the the connection to to humor because humor is is basically what I what I uh use or what I try to use as much as possible when it comes to um building connections to the music telling them that we don't have to take this too seriously at moments of course there is I I'm taking music very seriously but I try to you know make fun of myself make fun of what we're doing in moments where you know everything can become very tied up and there was this rule that I that I made you know made up in in England as well I have to make the choir laugh out really loud at least twice the rehearsal um and I would I would now say two is probably not enough it's funny what you were saying because uh about liking a piece and manipulating because I think we all go through phases of loving certain pieces and I and I still have this to this day I find a new piece or I go back to listening to a piece and I can't stop playing it over and over again because I'm just I'm in that piece and and then you you you sort of move on you find something else and that's your favourite piece. So it is it's like having a favourite at that moment and I think I think if you can inspire your choir in that way to love the piece you're working on at that moment and and it's amazing how many people who either dislike a piece or or dislike it before even singing it or even really knowing it how they become to love it eventually because the more they work and they more they sing and more connect to it the more they start enjoying singing and and also I you know when when I when I introduce a new piece I always ask them to you know stop being you know judgmental you know we we're so used to judge everything uh on a daily basis this is good this is bad and this is also one of the huge problems that society has right um and I ask them over the next week try not to be yes or no just you know try to get to know it you know uh and I also say like um a joke you you can only find a joke unfunny if you really understood it you know and you don't understand you know when you don't understand the piece uh you better not judge it you know get to know it first and this is a strong argument I think no one can really argue against that it's very true now you talk about you talk about making your choir laugh there have obviously been some funny things that have happened in your rehearsals or your performances over the years oh yeah funny anecdote I know you asked me for funny anecdotes uh beforehand and oh it's it was I've I've I've I've thought about it for we've all experienced these moments whether we want to share them or not yeah I know I I know uh I I don't I don't know if I if I can if I can now find the the most you know the most funny the most funny thing that ever has happened um I remember when I had uh my audition for for the Vokalhelden really as a conductor there was one little boy who was um who was always uh moving his arms when he was singing and I remember making him the conductor I I you know I put him on on a on a table where he was safe you know he didn't fall off but he then he became the conductor of the rehearsal and so there's small things like that um but oh the the funny moments and that's I I'm I feel so badly prepared because I I've been thinking about this for hours and I'm and I'm even talking about making choir laugh and now I don't have like the best don't worry honestly it's fine.

Final Takeaways And Closing Requests

SPEAKER_02 34:19

It's interesting you say about putting a a a child on a table and getting them to conduct maybe we should get maybe we should get our all our choir members to try conducting uh and and because it's a it's a it's it's an amazing thing to to build that relationship with the choir uh and have choir and conductor and for them to experience how to bring people together because that's what we're doing is you know you're bringing them together to sing you're bringing them in you're you're giving them cues you're showing expression interpretation wouldn't it be amazing if we had if we had the time to let everybody have a go at doing that or at least you know sometimes invite them to to stand in the middle beside beside you right to to see to to see all the pairs of eyes staring at you you know and seeing your next move and and you know yeah when when when uh when there is a situation where I where I can do that you know people always also say how do you you know how do you do this for like two hours you know it's it's all those eyes on you and it's such a it's such a huge pressure. I think we should definitely do that yes up to the it's been it's been so amazing talking to you. I I could talk with you for hours uh because I think we have so many things in common and it's it's really it's really great to share these these musical uh moments you've shared with us today and uh to get all those great great tips about rehearsals and uh yeah I think it's been invaluable and a fantastic conversation today. Thank you so much for joining me well thank you so wonderful chatting with Johannes today the wonderful Johannes David Bull Thank you so much for listening to the Choir Director Podcast it's been wonderful having you here today and if you found today's conversation valuable please take a moment to leave us a rating and review. It genuinely helps us reach more choir directors and grow this community together. And don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode and if you know a fellow director who'd benefit from today's conversation or any of the amazing guests we've had on the show please share it with them. It means the world to us and it could make a huge difference to them. To stay connected between episodes so you never miss a thing and receive exclusive content do join our mailing list link is in the show notes. And if you have a question about today's topic or any of the topics that we're covering perhaps a question to our guest or something you'd love us to explore on a future episode you can email the studio or leave us a voicemail. Both links are waiting for you in the show notes. Well thanks again for being part of the Choir Director podcast I'm Russell Scott and until next time goodbye