Welcome And Newsletter Invite

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Welcome to the Quran Director Podcast, the essential resource for choir directors, conductors, and vocal leaders who want to build stronger choirs, run better rehearsals, and create outstanding musical experiences. Well, this is episode 15. Welcome back to the show, and thanks again for all the downloads, all the reviews, all the ratings, pretty much everything. We're really underway now, and we've got some incredible, incredible guests lined up for the next few weeks. And in addition to that, we've got some advice and tips along the way with some special episodes designed to help you run your choirs more efficiently. And don't forget, if you haven't already done so, to sign up to our newsletter. You can do so in the show notes, and you'll get exclusive content direct to your inbox. None of this trashy spam stuff, just stuff that will be useful to you, stuff that you will find engaging, and there is nothing worse than getting a load of content that is just not useful, and you just end up unsubscribing.

Meet Oliver Rudin In Basel

SPEAKER_01 1:08

So I'm going to try and minimize that and send the link is in the today's very special guest, Oliver Rudin, artistic director based in Basil. He talks about what it takes to create a choir that genuinely surprises audiences. How to program contemporary music for singers and listeners who prefer the more familiar music and how to work with the voice change in a boy's choir, and why he believes that most choir directors dangerous. A very warm welcome to Oliver Rudin. It's really great to have you on the show today, all the way from Basel in Switzerland. Tell us a little bit about you and your life and where this all began.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Oh, my life is similar than the life of all choir conductors. I'm Oliver Rudin, as you said, from Basel, Switzerland, and I work with a youth choir, especially with the Basel Boys choir in in Basel, but also I have a Oyenka Gospel Choir at Minster, which is not really singing gospels, but everything else, kind of. And I just love choir music.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Do you have do you have a passion for uh a specific genre? Because I know you work across many different genres of music, but where where is your where is your passion?

From Classical Roots To Curiosity

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Well, I grew up um as a violin student. Um really basically classical music is in my is in my heart, but um soon I discovered everything else and the world is just huge, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 2:46

And it's it's interesting because because many many great choral conductors start in the classical world, um, and myself included, I I I kind of went through from from sort of musicals, musical theatre music to interclassical and trained classically, and then came out again at the other side working in musicals again and then working in more contemporary choral music and pop music. How do you feel that things transition? How do you transition between traditional classical music into something else?

SPEAKER_00 3:18

Well, you know, it's it's uh interesting because in in German language countries I figured out that we had a long time um there was it was kind of divided, uh classical music and pop and jazz and so on, and it starts all only now I think that that you really see the connections and you combine everything. And I think in in your country, um, and also maybe in the French-speaking um uh countries, this was not really the case. You always had those bridges. And um I see a lot of bridges, if you ask myself, and uh I I just love. I think when you are a musician, you should not think intellectually what you like, you should feel it and in in your passion. And so uh actually I love all kinds of music, which doesn't mean that I feel like an expert in in every kind of music, you know.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

But it's about exploration and and trying new things and being being adventurous. How do you how do you approach that with your own choirs?

SPEAKER_00 4:20

Like you say, traveling and discovering, and traveling not only physically, but just listening to others and discovering new works, new composers, uh, new styles. Um yeah, and just improvising, um trying out, not thinking too much, and thinking a lot afterwards. What am I actually doing? I think it's both, you know. It's uh it's very interesting to think and to listen to music, but it's it's wonderful to just do your own music um and and to to yes, well, your own music means as a choir conductor, not myself, you know. You always make this in a team um with with your singers together, and you will discover what what does your choir want and what is your choir um made for.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

I think it's important to be adventurous. I think I think it's very important to try new music.

Bridging Styles With Artistic Clarity

SPEAKER_01 5:17

I think it's the difficulty, of course, is that we all want to explore and push our boundaries a little more and to challenge our choirs. But it's difficult with audiences, I think, because with audiences they they come to concerts kind of wanting to hear things they know because it makes them feel good and they can relate to the music. But on the other side, it's important for us to educate our audiences as well and bring new music to them. And do you do you think that plays a part in in concerts? Do you think that concerts are harder to sell when when you have new music?

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Well, I think something else. I think you need a clear artistic idea. Um this yeah, uh this means that if you try to connect pieces from one style to another, it makes it also easier for the audience. Now, speaking of marketing, how do you sell this in at once? Um, this of is of is of course something diff uh difficult, especially if you start with a new choir. Uh as soon as the audience know that your choir is doing such things, it gets easier. Um, that you don't need um uh uh let's say popular composers um to to attract the people. But yes, you're saying a right thing at at the beginning. It's very difficult to um to sell this um in in in in advertising.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

And what what when you're approaching a new piece of music? It's interesting that we're talking about this. So when you're approaching a new piece of music, you give a choir, you give the choir the music, you say, This is what we're doing, it's called blah blah blah blah blah, and this is a brand new piece, and we're we're gonna do this. I bet you've never heard of this before. Uh, how do you engage the choir to love it and sing it well, not just intellectually, but actually to feel the

Getting Singers To Feel New Music

SPEAKER_01 7:13

music. How do they feel music that they don't know very well?

SPEAKER_00 7:17

Well, first of all, choose what you love yourself, because that's the uh authentic way to to um attract your singers and and your choir. They will feel it immediately. Uh also the audience will feel this at the end. But your singers know you very well and they feel it immediately if you say something where you say this is important kind of to sing this, it's hard, and it will be great to show everyone how um how difficult this piece is. No, that's the wrong way. I think it's very important that you choose something you you love and you really know why you want this um from the bottom of your heart, and that's how you can uh get your choir to to sing every music, I guess. Yeah, because they they love to see this. Usually we have singers coming to the choir rehearsal because they're looking for this passion. I work a lot of um, well, I'm lucky to work with a lot of amateur choirs, and um they they come to choir rehearsals because they need a contrast to their own lives, to their own business life, and they love to see passionate people, I guess. And so they create their own passion for it.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Do you think it's different between working with youth choirs and adult choirs in that way in wit when it comes to new music?

Youth Choirs Versus Adult Choirs

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Um, yes, I think it's it's it's different uh it's different. Let's say, well, of course, this is uh spoken very um in cliches, you know, but and there are exceptions. But I think um for for young people it's it's just a case that they don't know that much of work and music already, so you kind of have to show them what there is, what there is more than than they might uh already know. So this process could or can be longer. At the same time, they are very open, usually. Yeah, or that's at least what what I I like them to be, that they are open to everything and discovering and not arguing immediately, but finding out first.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Now

Judging Competitions And What Matters

SPEAKER_01 9:29

you as as part of your your work, not only are you conducting, you're also judging competitions. And I I I know you work with the World Choir Games. How does how does that work with you? I mean, how do you how do you work with all of the other leaders and experts and adjudicators across the world to judge the competitions? How do you how do you get on with that?

SPEAKER_00 9:52

Well, first of all, there are a lot of positive and negative aspects what um music competition um is, you know. Um what the thing I love is to exchange. I just love, and the world choir games is a perfect place where so many choirs, but also uh choir conductors come together, and well, you know, for me it's like like if I would go somewhere and just coming home with so many brainstorming ideas and discovering, and that's that's what is wonderful too, just to see what are the others um doing. So um I'm not only there because I like to judge, I'll I am there and I I find myself um well um being very surprised and and open to all choirs performances, and then finding out, oh well, I have to give points now, even though I had goose gumps, and and I need to to to um to put some some marks uh for intonation, you know, all those technical things, which are essential, but usually the technique is not the goal. Um, it's what makes expression possible, and in the end, and what matters is whether the music actually reaches the people, if uh if the music is moving us. That's what we're all um aiming for, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

It's very inspiring, I think, watching lots of different choirs, especially those you don't know. And then sometimes too, I because I've judged competitions myself, and sometimes you see choirs coming back and you see how they've changed and evolved and got better and developed. That's a really really inspiring thing, I think, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Yes, and uh well uh which is of course important. Um, I could not judge in a competition if I haven't been there with a choir myself. So I also know um that all that we all cooking with the same uh with the same um how you say in English, we we say with the same elements. We can say that we have all the same problems and difficulties. So I know that um if if there are only two bases in a choir, um of course it's uh it balance will be a matter, you know?

SPEAKER_01 12:13

So I most choirs, I think.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

Most choirs, and so and so I'm looking at the positive aspect and I look how do they handle this? How how do they work with what they have? Because finally, we um well we are experts in just doing something great with what we get and what we have, you know. So we have these singers, and uh what I'm looking for is especially to feel that the singers are not doing something they were told to, but that they are really doing something they feel for. Um so if they you you feel it very fastly if the singers are listening to each other, if they are breathing together. Um sometimes it's even a good idea if the conductor steps back at all, you know, because we all try to be in charge and control everything. And well, it depends on the situation and the work, but sometimes less is is is real better. And if you give the confidence to the singers, you actually feel this authenticity. Do they breathe together? Do they listen to each other? Do they have fun? Do they feel the music? And um, that's what I'm also as a judge. I'm looking for those things, and I learn so much in return for my own work.

Conducting 300 Singers In Berlin

SPEAKER_01 13:29

I had the pleasure of working with you just last year uh at the Berlin Philharmonie with uh Coral Space for their um project. Um Berlin loves you, and it was a wonderful experience uh working with you and seeing you in action. Um how do you think um how do you think it challenges you as a conductor when you are working with a large choir of people you've perhaps never met before from all over the world, 300 singers uh at the Berlin Philharmony, which is you know in the chamber hall, it's it's in the round. Uh how how how does that challenge you? What are the what are the challenges you face as a conductor working with a large large choir?

SPEAKER_00 14:08

Well, I'm smiling because actually that's exactly the point why I wanted to do this, you know, because um we are lucky, we can always work with our let's call them friends, because I don't think that someone is attending every week a rehearsal with a conductor they don't like, you know. So somehow um it's like a family, and which is beautiful, which is wonderful, and um, well, that's why we are doing this. But to learn for myself, it's so important that sometimes I check myself, my conducting my my rehearsal skills with people I don't know. And uh it's really interesting. I remember when I was there in Berlin, I um I sometimes I told something and I had the impression, oh, um I don't get immediately what I wanted, actually. So I need to find other ways to to uh to tell them. So well, I I work at home with different choirs, so of course I I also need to work with my own choirs in a different way, but it's something else when you look at all those eyes and you told it uh we had a huge, huge, a large choir, which is uh uh a great honor, but it's also a challenge. Um, alone the the thing of uh communication, um also the volume of communication is different, everything is different, and actually you you realize that you need to speak even less and to work even more with everyone because uh in such a workshop uh you're running out of time very quickly. And uh it it was for me, it was a very good experience to to find to finding out what is actually working better and and less. So it's uh it's so great for learning.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

It is, and what what's interesting, I think, is the very first rehearsal. When you sit down in the rehearsal room with 300 people and they're all arriving, and nobody really knows each other, the choirs don't know each other, they're all coming together for the first time. You as a conductor has to have to take control of the room and lead the rehearsal and bring everybody together. What techniques do you use to to do that? Do you do that with your warm-up? Do you do that with your your jokes and your spirit? Uh do you how do you how do you bring the choirs together

First Rehearsal Exercises That Unite

SPEAKER_01 16:22

in the very first instance?

SPEAKER_00 16:24

Well, of course, I prepare myself the best possible way, but at the end, again, I think you need to be authentic, you know. So um, if you feel like making a joke, do it. Um don't think it's maybe the wrong place. I think um that's the most important that you just stay the the the way you are, and at the same time, you you you follow the guides, uh you the guidelines you you worked um before because of course I knew how how less time I I will have with with everyone. And um I chose some exercises just to bring all together. Um for instance, uh I like one very easy exercise where everyone is humming some tone uh in pianissimo, and um they need to find a common tone. You know, that's just a very easy rehear, uh very easy exercise where uh where everyone realizes that we can find one common tone, even though we don't know each other. Um, and um, well, of course, you as as a conductor you have to take care that there aren't that that there is actually nobody singing louder than pianissimo or louder than his neighbor, its neighbor. Um but but that's certain exercises work, of course, um for for this, and you get quickly also kind of a harmony. You can do this also with a major uh or or a minor chord um when you improve uh uh and you get get get more difficult exercises, yeah.

Intonation Through Focus And The Body

SPEAKER_01 18:01

How do you do how do you deal with people that um cannot pitch very well?

SPEAKER_00 18:08

Well, usually pitching is not um in my experience it's it's not just uh uh a thing of listening or hearing, it's more uh a question of focusing, concentration, and especially also on how um how your body is ready, ready for. Yeah, so we all know that if the choir is is um tired at the end of a rehearsal, for instance, it's uh it's we we get problems with intonation very fastly. And we also know uh this phenomenon that when you have a concert, the the the intonation can be better, yeah. Sometimes even that good that everyone is getting uh higher and too expressive and so on. Um so this shows us that it's not just um a question of listening to each other. Of course, it is. Of course, we need those rehearsal um exercises where we listen to each other, but we also need our our body, and um, that's why I like to work with a co-partner um who is working a lot with uh with body and staging. So the awareness where you stand and how you stand and what you sing actually can be uh very important for intonation too.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

Do you think that um intonation has more effect on pitch and tuning than perhaps production of open vowels?

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Oh, that's a hard question. I I think you need both. So of course, when I work on on intonation and I have the impression that everyone is really full of energy, ready, focused, concentrated, and the intonation is still lacking. So of course I'm I'm looking um at at the blend and and and how they they pronounce uh and the the vowels, they they they look at each other, they follow their lips, and they try to find themselves. Again, I think it's it's important that you try to find exercises where the singers, the choir is um is is working on their own, even without conductor, and you just lead the exercise and then you step back and you they look at each other, they will find out. Um if they're all focused, full of energy, yeah. Again, I think this is the base you you you need before working on intonation. So I also had rehearsals where I realized sometimes also um they they uh you realize everyone had a bad day. Uh and and then you you realize today is not the right moment to work on intonation. I work on other things, on expression, and I bring maybe even other pieces. So uh a certain spontaneous spontaneity is very important that that you can lead the rehearsal in a productive way. And the goal is that everyone leaves the rehearsal and um improve themselves, but also had fun, enjoyed. And um, yeah, also us as a conductor, I already realized and sometimes you you go into a rehearsal and you feel my maybe you you might not feel that great yourself, but your goal has to be that you get out of the rehearsal full of energy, and this works with music, which is uh unbelievable.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

It's interesting you you talk about stepping back sometimes and leaving the choir to do it themselves. I do this quite a lot because I think it it makes them listen harder and work harder as to work as a team, which is what what the choir should be doing. It's not just about everybody arriving in the room, looking at the conductor and following the conductor, it's about working together. I I struggle sometimes with uh choirs that will enter the room. And we motivate them, we energize them in a good warm-up, and then they go to sing, and the intonation just doesn't exist very much because choirs sometimes I think they just turn up and they just sing. They just when they're learning the piece, they just sing the notes, and everything's a little bit robotic and a little bit monotonous. And that intonation is very difficult, I think, to to then bring out in them. And I think I think there is this link between intonation and expression, isn't there? Where if you can get somebody to feel something, they're much more likely to express it and therefore intonate it better.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

Yes, absolutely. And um I think to feel the music, maybe for this part, it's also important that you know what you sing. Um I think it's it's uh it's very important that you have also uh an overview. We have a lot of concert programs with very different pieces, and um, by the way, even for competition, you need very different um songs. But actually, I like when I feel that there is even there, even then it's uh competition. I like when you when you have a connection. I I don't mean uh connection continuously. I you of course there can be a break, but the idea of having no applause, but to stay in this in this feeling helps, of course, also to have a certain condition for for the singers as well. It helps them, especially if we work with young people, uh, with kids and and and um youth choirs. It's uh it it helps them to have one hour of of um um of of condition of of energy. Um if they if they have an idea of what they are singing. Sometimes you need a lot of images um to to give them to kids and and youth choirs. So it's not only the lyrics, sometimes you need something something bigger overall, an overall artistic um approach.

Choosing Repertoire For Competition Success

SPEAKER_01 24:01

Now, someone someone who has taken part in competitions and now judges competitions, adjudicates competitions, how important is choosing the right rep, the right music, and how imp how difficult is it to find that music and put that together for a competition?

SPEAKER_00 24:21

Well, first of all, it's the most important thing I think for the competition that you find the right works. The right work there are there are pieces you can choose where um where you know it's kind of a competition piece. Uh, usually you you need four short songs. Let's say four short songs, uh and I already uh said it, they need to be short. There are masterpieces, eight, nine minutes, but you won't you you won't be able to sing those because you have only 15 minutes in total over uh certain things. So it's it's a very difficult choice. But to find um good songs is also important to find songs which are good for your choir. Um often I I hear in competition always the same songs, you know. And uh of course I have the impression immediately I say, Oh yes, you can show a lot with this song. I understand that it's a good competition piece. But but as as long as as it's not a mandatory piece, um, I don't think that this piece might be the right piece for every choir, because the choirs are so different. So it's very important that you find yourself and you you're you well you're thinking of what um what is good for your choir. And in a competition, you of course want to show your strength, especially, you know, and every choir has strengths, and you show should should um headline those. You you know I always compare it to soccer because I also like soccer, football. And um, when you um when you compare it, you cannot have every team playing in the same strategy with the same strategy, you have to look what what plays you have. Um, if you want to play in a defensive or in an offensive um uh tactic, um, for instance. And it depends also on the competition or at the end mean football, you know. You have to uh to to check what is the category and what does it mean. And um, and sometimes it's good to to think of of uh category in a bigger way so that you you show up and you show something different than the others.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Do you think it's um it plays an important part in when you're in competitions to actually love the piece? Because I think can you know the conduct conductors will will choose pieces that they like and they feel challenging and that are sort of clever choices because they obviously want to impress the adjudicators and they obviously ultimately want to win the competition, that's the whole point. So you're gonna try and be a little clever in choosing your s your music. What happens when some of the choir don't like the piece? Are they going to be able to engage with it and commit to it and sing it with the same passion and energy that someone who does love the piece has? How how do you get around that? Because you are never going to be able to choose pieces of music that every single person loves, every bit of it. It's just not possible.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

Well, in uh competition, the technique is essential, as I said before, but the expression might make the difference, and that's our our goal. So let's let's say, for example, we have a choir um where the technique is is stupid, wonderful, you know, you have perfect points there, but at the same time, you have the impression that something is missing, the communication is missing, and so on. So you have uh the impression it's a lot of brain work, and it's uh it's incredible what this choir reaches in in technical things, and sometimes it's it's maybe this that they um don't understand exactly what the song is, or they don't understand why it was chosen. As you said before, yes, um, it's it's you you feel it immediately if someone loves this piece. And if I'm in a competition, I don't want to listen to four huge complicated songs. I also want to to hear, oh wow, this is the favorite song of this choir. Amazing, and it can be simple sometimes, you know. It all it's not only um complication that makes the difference, it's also this this passion, this um this expression, and and you feel this very much. So you have to find a mix, I guess, in a competition.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

And how how do you convince those people that don't love it to try and love it? Because often you'll bring a piece of music and somebody will say, Oh, this is terrible, I hate this piece, it's terrible music. I hate singing it, it's boring, it's it's too difficult, I don't I can't I can't relate to it. Over time, they they learn to enjoy it and then they actually do love it in the end. I've I've had this many times with with pieces of music. And I'm not talking just in competition, I'm talking, you know, as a whole in performance. How do we help those people love a piece of music? So I'm sure it's something that's that a lot of choir directors are uh challenged by.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Well, I think it's it's a lot about confidence also. Um they if they feel confident, they feel strong on stage, and they also want I don't like this word that much, but they they want some kind of success, you know. Um of course, obviously in a competition you want to win at the end, but that's not the point. I think the greatest moment in a competition for a choir is to step off the stage and to say, wow, wow, we've never performed 15 minutes like this. It's incredible, you know. Um, so that's what we're actually looking for, and the result at the end should be shouldn't be at first. Um, and this confidence, um, that's what we work in the rehearsal for in every concert. That the things believe that they are really um that it's great what they achieved, uh, their result, their product, their the common product on on stage. And so you can also confide um you you can also convince them that the choice of a piece they didn't like at start can be great. And there are pieces they laugh only after the first concert or during the first concert, you know, and there are pieces they laugh in the first rehearsal. So it's uh it's diff different, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

What what advice would you give choir directors um who have never tried competitions before and are a little scared to try because they are not sure if they're good enough or they're scared of the experience and they don't want it to be a negative experience, and they just you know they've never done it, so they don't try.

Competition Mindset Without Fear Of Failing

SPEAKER_01 31:18

What would you advise?

SPEAKER_00 31:20

Well, I I would advise them to um to headline the fact that you sing just a short program in front of a large audience, uh you see other choirs and so on. And I think this is a very important thing. It's very hard to give one two-hour concerts um and to s to stay always on top. Usually we are not all the same, we don't might not have the same opinion, but some singer says, Oh, here I felt not that good today, and so on, you know. But if you have a short program in a competition and you show 15 minutes and you work so hard just for those 15 minutes, this is um really something which makes makes a difference, and it helps you so much in all rehearsals afterwards that you can remember um the singers and you say, You re uh do you remember the the moment we sang this piece in this competition? We worked so hard on this and this and this, and we got the result, and we felt it all the same at at the end. So I think that's the the greatest point to to do competitions.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

Because I I I I think a lot of choirs would be concerned of their of what people think of them. You know, they go for a competition, they didn't win. Um, they didn't come anywhere. You know, they've gone into a competition the first time, and perhaps they've you know they've done a good job, but they feel that because they didn't win something, they feel failure. But actually it's not really that the case of failing, because you don't go to a competition to be told how terrible you are, you go to a competition for the experience and the learning, and to push you to the next level and to try and p push your way up and uh etc. So how how do you get around that? Because I suspect that in competitions there is a big divide between great greatness and those who are just taking part.

SPEAKER_00 33:20

Yes, well, um that I think uh choir competition is in general maybe not the right thing for every choir, you know. You have to feel your choir. I think to make a choir competition experience could be good for every choir to do it once, you know. If you do this in a regular way or not, that's another question. But to have this um idea of trying to to push you at the at the maximum for this short program of 15 minutes and to show this, I think that's a good thing for everyone. And um, of course, you have to train everyone the idea that it you cannot fail. As I said before, you cannot fail in a competition. That's a very important thing. In a choir competition, you may sometimes it helps also to say the opposite, you know, you can win competitions. And telling your choirs what does it help to win the competition? It doesn't help you that much. You know, it's a very it's a wonderful moment um of success, but you have to train them that it's not about winning, it's about giving your best. Um, and it's easier to give you the best in a competition for 15 minutes than in a concert for two hours and to work for this. And I think that's the all all that matters for our competition.

SPEAKER_01 34:43

It's it's really interesting what you say there because I I I could not agree more. I I remember with one of my own choirs many years ago, we had never

Festivals Cultures And The Cost Of Prizes

SPEAKER_01 34:52

we had never done anything outside of our own choir. Uh, and what I mean that by our own performances, and I took I took uh one of my choirs to a festival that was non-competitive, but had lots of choirs there. The choir had never been away before, they'd never toured before, they'd never been anywhere before, and also we'd never sung a cappella music before. And we decided to just try. We thought, let's let's go to this festival and perform with other choirs and see how how it feels. It was the changing point for the choir. It took us to such a high level because we achieved both things of standing on the platform on a stage alongside other choirs. Some were better than us, some were worse than us, but we performed with them and we learned so much from watching them, and it it propelled us another level up, another level up, and it and it really pushed us that we we then really progressed so much faster as a result of doing that. And I think it's really important because I I I have a lot of um choirs that come to me uh for my own festival, the World Voices Festival, and they say, you know, which is non-c completely non-competitive, and they say to me, Do we have to perform? My choir doesn't want to perform. And we say, No, you you don't have to perform. But most choirs perform, and we encourage everyone to perform because it there it is such a an enriching and inspiring experience. It's never a negative experience performing on stage. And when you are with other choirs, just as you say, in competitions, you're with other choirs, they are a very, very supportive audience, aren't they? Because because they're they're people like you. And that and that's really important, I think, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 36:36

Absolutely. And um, while I was listening to you, I was thinking of the movie As It Is In Heaven, the Swedish movie. I don't know if you you know this, but it's a great advice because it's it's it shows a lot about this. And at the end, this this uh village choir um goes on a competition, and it's and you realize that it's not about the competition at all at the end. You don't even know um if they were ranked or whatever, you know. And um I I really I I really think that um that it helps. But let me say one more thing. Um, I think you and I we live in countries where um we have a lot of festivals without competition, we can go there, you know. So um for us, there are also other ways. Um competition is not everything. But when I go to the World Choir Games, I see choirs I would not see on any other festival. So this is uh is is um an important thing. Um and well there are there are other choirs and cultures, uh they have to win prizes to get the money that their choir is actually being financed, and that's a very different point of view. So that's the very negative way, you know. Uh I don't think that you should compete to to to be able to sing uh and to have your choir school um yeah working and evolving uh yes and and building up and so on. So that's a that's a sad thing. But for us to see a lot of different cultures and choirs, it's a wonderful thing to go to competition because you see you might discover choirs you've never seen before.

SPEAKER_01 38:24

Yeah, yeah, that's that's that's you know, to fight you know, competition for survival. That's that's pretty stressful, I think.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

Terrible. It's really terrible. Yeah, no, it's uh I mean we all know music should not be about competing, you know. Music, we can build bridges singing all together. It's the most wonderful thing that you just stand together. It's so wonderful when you then start to sing something and you realize, oh, someone else you don't know knows the song, and you can just you feel just um very close in this moment, and that's that's what choir singing is all about.

SPEAKER_01 39:02

We we love what we do, we're very passionate about what we do, and I don't think you could ever do this for a living just to do it as a job. We do it because we love it, we're passionate, we feel it. Absolutely. Or how could you imagine doing anything else? I mean, how does it how does it feel to be a called conductor?

SPEAKER_00 39:24

Well, I could not imagine anymore doing something else, you know. It was um when when you start um in a boys choir and you are five years old, and then you discover everything. Oh also opera. We were uh we got the chance um in the basil boys choir to sing also in the opera and so on, and you feel very very soon you feel addicted that this is what you want to do. And uh working as a choir conductor um is is is is a beautiful thing because you work with human beings and you work not with them but uh not for them but with them, you know. Um that's that's that's wonderful. Um and and you also see what how it helps, um, how it helps everyone. It's it's a beautiful thing. It is.

SPEAKER_01 40:15

Oliver, it's it's been absolutely brilliant talking with you today. Thank you so much for being on the show and good luck with everything. Enjoy the World Choir Games coming up soon. You're gonna have an amazing time, I'm sure. And I wish you all the very best. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Russell. See you soon.

Closing Thanks Reviews And How To Connect

SPEAKER_01 40:31

What a great interview with Oliver Rudin, all the way from Baselin, Switzerland. So wonderful talking with all these amazing choir directors from across the world. And we have some fantastic guests lined up for the next few weeks ahead as well. Thank you so much for listening to the Choir Director Podcast. It's been wonderful having you here today. And if you found today's conversation valuable, please take a moment to leave us a rating and review. It genuinely helps us reach more choir directors and grow this community together. And don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if you know a fellow director who'd benefit from today's conversation or any of the amazing guests we've had on the show, please share it with them. It means the world to us and it could make a huge difference to them. To stay connected between episodes so you never miss a thing and receive exclusive content, do join our mailing list. The link is in the show notes. And if you have a question about today's topic or any of the topics that we're covering, perhaps a question to our guest or something you'd love us to explore on a future episode, you can email the studio or leave us a voicemail. Both links are waiting for you in the show notes. Well, thanks again for being part of the Choir Director Podcast. I'm Russell Scott, and until next time, goodbye.