Welcome And What To Expect

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Welcome to the choir director podcast, the essential resource for choir directors, conductors, and vocal leaders who want to build stronger choirs, run better rehearsals, and create outstanding musical experiences. Well, a very warm welcome back to the show, the choir director podcast with me, Russell Scott. It's been another fantastic week, and I can't thank you enough for your continued support and the wonderful messages I'm receiving, just uh supporting the show and telling us about all the great tips you've picked up from our guest interviews. They really have been very wonderful, and I'm looking forward to many, many more that we have lined up in the weeks and months ahead. We've also got some additional special episodes lined up for you as well, with lots of uh information about running your choirs, making them more administratively efficient, and uh getting more creativity into the running of your choir.

Meet Maria And St Louis Music

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Now, on today's show, we have another wonderful guest. I'm joined by Maria A. Ellis, the founder of Girl Conductor and St. Louis-based educator and choral conductor. She leads a number of choirs and ensembles. You may also know her from radio shows Barcom Beyonce and American Gospel on Classic 107.3. In this episode, we'll talk about those high-impact rehearsal strategies, building inclusive repertoire with integrity, and how to help young singers find confidence and style in the choral setting. And of course, we're going to be talking about crossover between the wonderful different genres of music, including that of classical, gospel, and modern day pop. Well, a huge welcome. It's so, so wonderful to have you on the show today. How are you doing? I'm so honored to be here. I was jamming out on the music. I'm so honored to be with you. Oh, thank you so much. Well, that's great. Now you're you're based in St. Louis, Missouri. Yes. How is uh how is music over there? I mean, where how does it differ from anywhere else in the world? There must be something really unique. I think people don't really realize how rich music is in St. Louis. I mean, we are we're the home of Scott Joplin. There are um there are so many different kinds of music in St. Louis. So we have our fantastic St. Louis Symphony Orchestra. I believe they are the second oldest orchestra in the country. We also have um Opera Theater St. Louis. We have lots of wonderful operas that begin in St. Louis before they go to the Met. We have the amazing Sheldon's All-Star Chorus, which I conduct. Of course. I think they're they're um 1000% amazing, but we have so many different times of different kinds of music, different artists, different genres. It's just a really good town for music.

Gospel Roots And Early Leadership

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Did you find yourself drawn into a certain type of music? Do you do feel a certain type of music, or were you sort of more coerced into it through your family and through your parents and through other means? I don't think I had a choice for gospel music. I think this that was always going to be a thing in my house. So my parents were really um and still are heavily involved in the church. I grew up apostolic. Um, my mother was is currently and was back then church choir president. So we always went to choir rehearsal with her. We learned music by going to rehearsal. That's where I first learned um that I could hear the different voice parts. Um, I was a little girl sitting in choir rehearsal with her and couldn't understand why people were singing the wrong notes. I was like, why don't you hear that that's wrong? Like, this is where it should be. Or there was a lady who couldn't get the right rhythm. Like, why don't you feel where that rhythm should come in it? But that that was me as a little girl. It's a very natural thing, isn't it? I think I think musicians really feel it from the soul right from the start. I don't think you learn how to feel music. I think you have that with built within. I think you learn how to be a better musician, but I don't think you can change what you feel, can you? I don't think so. I think it's just the gifts that we have. And I think being a musician, number one, is one of the greatest gifts in the world. But I think it's a gift that we have. Um, some people are naturally fast, some people can naturally dance. I'm not good at either one of those things, but I've always been a great musician. Did you study music? Did you study gospel music, gospel music specifically? Um, so I have a degree in music education and I have a master's, um, I have a master's of arts with the emphasis in choral conducting. So, yes, later on in life, I did formally study music. However, when I was little, I I would say I studied it on my own because I had to. I was a choir director at, I think around age 12, I started directing the choir. But before then, my sister and I, we would listen to gospel songs on the radio and we would figure out the voice parts so we could go to rehearsal to our children's choir rehearsal, and we would be the people teaching the parts. Or if the director was teaching it wrong, we'd be like, nope, that's not the right part. This is how the part should go. But we were doing that for fun as little kids. I want to say, like, it had to be around like eight or nine, like doing this with my sister. She's also a choir director. But this was what we did for fun. We just really, really loved music. And do you think, do you think that's why you've ended up working a lot with youth choirs and children's choirs? Because of how you felt and connected with it as a little girl yourself. 1000%. Um, my first formal choir with sheet music was in sixth grade. Um, and I fell in love with the music. I fell in love with like being a part of a huge choir. I want to say there's probably like 150 kids in this honor choir. I didn't know it was an onacquir back then, but probably 150 kids in this honor choir. And I felt so special because I said, this is what I'm good at. Like I'm I'm never gonna be the dancer, I'm never gonna be the athlete, but this is my world. This is what I know. And I love that I'm able to bring that experience to children, I guess, around the world now. That's an amazing, amazing thing to be able to say, isn't it? Um, because we never I think we never expect when we're when we're young, when we're kids, even as we grow up, we never expect to have the experiences that we do ourselves. We're we're all about trying to educate others, but in turn, it brings us the most enormous joy from the success of seeing others succeed and develop. Do you think that's um do you think that's the the same for everybody in all walks of life, in all types of music? I think so. I think when you when you're gifted with something that that burns so deeply inside of you, when you get to share that, I think that's one of the greatest feelings in the world. Um, I just watched the Michael movie, the biopic of Michael Jackson. And one of the things that that stuck with me is he said, I want to, I want to do this for the fans. I want to do this for the for the people. There's a clip where he says he doesn't like Turing. He's like, I really don't like touring. It really weighs on the body and everything. But he constantly did it because of the joy that he felt giving it to the people. And I think so many of us feel that. We we feel music very differently than uh non-musicians. I was telling my choir, I said, the way I analyze music, the way I feel music, is very different. Music runs through my bones. I feel it like electricity running through my body. And I just want to express that and share that with the world because the joy that I have when I'm doing it, I want you to feel that joy as well. So I do think so. It's interesting that because in in the last episode, I I spoke about why I do what I do and why I love doing what I do. It's all about how others are experiencing from what I'm trying to teach, if you like.

Rehearsals Built On Trust

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Um, but art, do you do you find when you walk into a rehearsal room that you have so much to give, but you don't know where to start? How do you approach rehearsals? Every rehearsal when I'm with a new group, I always start with making them feel comfortable and letting them know that I am here for them and we are in this together. So I take on the persona of being your favorite auntie. Um, I feel like when your favorite aunt comes over, she can tell you to do things that your mother probably would have to tell you 10 times to do. So your favorite aunt could come over and say, Maria, girl, go clean up your room. And you're like, Okay, auntie, I'm going to clean my room. Even though your mama said it 10 times, right? You still go clean your room, right? With mute, with with being an unacquired clinician or being a festival choir director, you're really saying the same things that the teacher has already said. But it just sounds different because it's coming from somebody new, you know, quote unquote, somebody new. So I always come up that that approach that we are family. I love you. And it's my job to enhance what you can already do. So I'm never coming in as the authority, the end-all, be all. No, that I'm not coming in as that. I just want to take what you can do already, and I want to enhance it and bring you up to the next level. So that's the the energy that I bring. Um, I try to make my rehearsals really fun. Um, I'm very energetic. Um, it's not rare that I'm running or dancing around a rehearsal or something like that, because I really want the students to lock in, have a good time, and know that even though we're we're doing this music, sometimes it's very serious music, there's still a joy in what we have to bring and what we're giving to the audience. That's our gift that we present to them. Because think about it, there are so many people who wish they could sing, they wish they can do what we do, but we've been blessed with these gifts that we share to the world. So it's my job just to bring that gift out of you so we can share it together. Do you think it's harder to do to bring that to children than to to adults? No, I think it's easier with children. No. Because children, children go with it. Like they don't, they don't have the they they still have that innocence of I believe that this can be whatever it is. Whereas sometimes with adults, because of life and things like that, they kind of have to be convinced that it can be whatever it is. But children, children just like they're ready. You say, okay, yeah, on the count of three, we're gonna jump, and they're like, okay, we jump. Adults, you're like, okay, we're gonna jump, and they're like, my knees, I'm not, I'm not jumping, you know? Well, kids are fearless, aren't they? They're they're completely fearless and they'll try anything. They're a bit shy to start with, but as as you say, once you break down those walls and you they trust you and they like you and they feel they've got the auntie, you know, they will they will relax, they'll do anything. Whereas you you say to a you say to an adult, okay, as you say, do this or try this, or that they're very reluctant because they're scared of making a fool of themselves. Yeah. And I always tell them, I said, I'm any choir and work with adults, our children always say, I'm I'm standing before you, but I'm I'm not going to be perfect. I'm I'm not. I'm going to make mistakes during this rehearsal. I'm going to make a mistake, right? Feel free to make the mistake and make it loud because this is rehearsal. Mistakes are welcomed at rehearsal. They're not welcomed on my stage, but during rehearsal, make mistakes and make them loud so then we can fix it. So I try to put people at ease with saying things like that, letting them know that we are in this together. And my job really is to support you. I have no nothing inside of me wants to embarrass you. Especially in this in this age where everybody has a cell phone held, recording a concert. I have no, no, um, nothing in me makes me want makes me want you to go viral for the wrong reason. I love that. That's great. It's funny what you you just said something that I've been saying for years to my own choir, and I'm I'm sure if some of them are listening, they'll be they'll be nodding their heads and going, oh, he says that as well. It's lovely to hear someone else say it. And that is that one, it's okay to make mistakes, but make them loud enough so that we can correct them because we can't correct a mistake we can't hear. And and I think so many people are scared to make mistakes in rehearsals. And I think the same goes for the choir director. I think you're absolutely right what you just said. I, you know, I love the fact that that's you're a little bit bit humble to your own choir and saying, look, I'm not perfect either. I'm gonna make mistakes too. You can tell me if I make a mistake, if I haven't noticed it myself. And if I make a mistake, we put our hands up and say, sorry, made a mistake. We're human, aren't we? We make mistakes, but that's how we learn. That's how we learn, that's how we get better, but that's also how we trust each other. You feel comfortable making that mistake in front of me, you trust me that I'll help you with that. If I make a mistake, I need them to trust me. I'm gonna acknowledge that I did it. That's on me. Stay with me though, because I'm gonna correct it. But just stay with me. And once you get that trust, then whether you make a mistake or not, you'll be fine. I remember I was conducting this choir. I had like, oh, probably about 250 kids in this choir. And we were singing a song, and um there was a part where I was supposed to end the song, and my brain spaced out. I had a score in front of me, but I spaced out and I kept it going. And I was just like, shoot, made a mistake. But I'm like telling the kids, stay with me. And they're like, okay, we got you, Auntie. And they stayed with me, and we ended the song, and it was perfect. The audience didn't have a clue. There was a mistake. When we got finished, the kids was like, You were supposed to end the song, but we kept going. I was like, yes. And thank you for trusting me. Thank you for staying with me. You know, so I think we just have to build those relationships. Singing is really about relationships because it's so personal. It's we're so vulnerable as singers. It's it's my voice. I can't blame it on an instrument malfunctioning or a drumstick not being in the right place. This is from my body. It's so personal. So I want to make sure that you're comfortable with this personal thing. And I want to honor that gift. I want to honor your vulnerability in that moment. But trust me that I'm going to help you be the best that you can be. Now you don't just focus on gospel music, the more traditional. You work a lot in the pop world as well. You've you have this radio program, the Bach and Beyoncé. Tell us more about that. Bach and Beyonce came from um working with high school freshmen who didn't, high school freshmen boys who did not want to sing classical music. They was like, it's lame. We don't want to sing it. And I was like, no, no. I said, all of these rappers that you all love, they all

Bach And Beyoncé Connections

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love classical music. And they was like, no, they don't. So I went on this, went down this rabbit hole of finding all of these different rappers who had sampled classical music in their um, you know, in their in their music. And I brought it up, brought it back to them. And they was like, oh, okay, we can get with this. And I'm like, yeah, classical music is really cool, and the stories behind this music like will blow your mind. Like, these are not saints who wrote this music. Like, Black was considered like a thug to some people because he was he was bad when he was younger. He was such a bad boy, breaking windows and vandalizing property. He was bad, but he was brilliant, he was human. And so Black and Beyonce is really about making these composers human and like comparing them to modern day um composers or arrangers and artists. So my episode that is happening on um April 30th, that episode is all about Michael Jackson and how he was as brilliant as Bach and as Beethoven and as Stravinsky and all these different things that he did to make him not just an excellent performer, but an excellent musician. How he started his dangerous tour in Bucharest with Carmina Barana. Not thriller, not beat, not beat it. Carmina Barana. And I think those are the stories that we have to tell so people don't think that classical music is just this stuffy genre of music. No, it's for everybody. And once you get that connection, you can like, you're like, okay, I can vibe with this. Well, I was talking to my son about this recently, actually. And it's funny you mentioned the dangerous tour. I remember I remember the dangerous tour. I was I was there. I I was one of those people that got to see it, which was amazing. And um, yeah, the that Carmina Burana opening was amazing. It just was, it was just so dramatic. Uh and his entrance onto the stage, it was so dramatic. But I was talking to my son because he had to do a project at school, um, and he could he could choose his title. And I said, What do you want to do this project about? And he said, Well, I would like it to be something to do with music. And I said, Well, what about music? And he said, Oh, I don't know. Should I do it classical? Or he said, I love film music and you know, maybe modern music. Or I said, So why don't you link those together and talk about how music um is represented now? Um, because it's all influenced by the past. All music is influenced by what happened in the classical age, in the romantic era, you know, it or in in in the Baroque, you know, everything we hear today is based on that music. So how has how has classical music made an impact on modern music? And you're doing exactly that in in your show. Uh, it's talking about those those um the the the the the similarities and the the nuances and the little motifs we hear that suddenly remind us of a piece of classical music. Do you know what I mean? Yes, because okay, so my favorite movie is The Whiz, um, number one because I love Michael Jackson. So The Whiz is my favorite movie. And you know the subway scene where like everybody's like, I don't watch this scene because it's scary, but but they're in the subway if you don't know. They're in this subway, and the the evil witch has sent her minions to come get them, right? And so they're trying to run away from these orange things, and the lion has ran off. He's like, Look, I'm gone, I'm I'm going to film for myself. And there's this moment where the music starts jumping. It's like dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun. I said, wait a minute, that's from that's Stravinsky. That motif is from the wrong. Yeah. You were gonna say Stravinsky. And I'm like, oh my God, I gotta talk about this on my show. Like, I my husband, like, what's wrong with you? And I'm like, that's classical music right there. Quincy Jones knew what he was doing, he knew what he was doing. And I think there's so many little things that we don't even realize is classical music. And so I I feel like I feel like it's my job to talk about all of it. And in fact, in that, in that uh, in that uh soundtrack, the song Home, which I absolutely love, the uh the opening of the verse uh is actually also a quote from I Just Can't Stop Loving You, the other Michael Jackson song. Uh you can you can hear it. I I love those sort of things. I often, when I'm in rehearsal, I'll suddenly just stop and think about something. I think that comes from something else. I've heard that. I've heard that somewhere else. And whether it's a TV commercial or whether it's a film music or I've heard that. And then I start singing it and I find it on on Spotify or Amazon Music or somewhere, and I just find the song and I play it to the choir and say, look, you can hear that, you can hear that in there. It's an amazing thing being able to hear other music in other music. But but that's how I that's how I got to the point of understanding music theory. I was struggling. Um, I come from a school um that was considered a Title I school. I don't know if y'all have those where you are, but it's a school that was like low income. So we didn't learn how to read music. We learned everything by ropes. We have incredible ears, right? Because we never learned how to do the sight reading thing. We didn't learn it. When I when I went back to school at 31, is when I started studying music formally. And I was struggling because I was like, I don't speak the

Teaching Theory Through Familiar Songs

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language, I have no clue what y'all are talking about. And it was really hard for me, right? But when we got to theory, and he went to playing, the teacher went to playing some things on the piano, and I said, wait a minute. I said, That's gospel, that's Fred Hammond. I know that. I know this line. And then it clicked. It was like, Maria, it's not that you don't know it. You just speak a different language. And then once I could put everything through my gospel language, I was like, boom, I got it. I understand it. I get it. And so that's another reason why Black and Beyoncé exists, is to make it so it's relevant to students who were maybe don't come from the background of hearing a Beethoven or a Stravinsky in their household, but they come from a background of hearing um a Nelly or a Beyonce or things like that. And then you can connect the two together, and then it makes sense. So like I teach the Beyoncé and the Taylor Swift music intervals because they make sense to kids now. Versus we see, I know in America we teach um uh all enzyme for like a perfect fourth. And I'm like, that's that's nice if you sing that. If your people don't sing that, that don't make sense. Here comes the bride. It works if you go to weddings where they do that. Most weddings that I've I've never heard that played. So that reference won't make sense to me. But a reference from Beyonce, I'm gonna get it every time. A Taylor Swift reference, I'm gonna get that every time. Because that's what I hear naturally going on in my world. That's a very useful thing to do, actually, because I I've I have the songs that I go to to remember those fourths and fifths and sixth and sevenths. And you know, you you see them online sometimes. You know, you see um you hear excerpts of the the Simpsons theme music or something, and you you you know the interval for the, you know, all that sort of stuff. And that you see this stuff all over socials. It's great. But it's it wouldn't it be useful? It's a good tip that it's for everybody to find the songs where they can remember those intervals. Songs that they remember and that relate to them rather than being told, Here comes a bride or old Lang Zyne or Amazing Grace or any of these that we're always told to listen to. Oh, remember that song. Because halfway through a song, a piece of music, you see an interval and you think, How does that sound again? And they're trying to think of the song. And they need they need to think of a song that they know well rather than trying to remember the song. Because they the examples that I know the examples that I that they were using when I was in school, they were all outdated. Kids don't sing nursery rhymes anymore. So the nursery rhyme um intervals they don't make sense. Um, I've never seen them the musical West Side story. So when people want to go, too, not well, that's nice, but I've never seen that. So I don't I don't know. You know what I'm saying? How can you not see West Side Story? Come on. I know the music, I just best musical ever written. Okay. Come on, what's your what's your favorite musical? Do you have the whiz? Oh, okay. So that was that is your favorite. Yeah, the whiz is my I grew up, we grew up watching the whiz like every day. It's the whiz. But also, I love Wicked. I I love Wicked, and I love uh Hamilton. I saw Hamilton um this uh last year when um Leslie Odam Jr. was doing his, you know, when he came back to do it. Oh my god. Floored. Floored.

Musicals And The Power Of Backstory

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I watched Hamilton in the Rogers Theatre like I had never seen it before a day in my life. Now Hamilton Hamilton's an interesting one for me um because I'm one of the few people that loved the soundtrack, but I didn't enjoy the show when I went to see it. Yeah, I'm one of those people. I'm one of the people that didn't love it. And I'll tell you why I didn't love it. It wasn't because I didn't love the music, and it wasn't because I didn't appreciate it. I think it's one of the most genius, genius pieces of work ever written. I think it's yeah, it's it's incredible. Um, and I loved the staging and I I loved everything about that. I just couldn't keep up. And I think I think for a Brit, if we don't know the American history, the story, which you guys know really, really well, trying to keep up with that story is quite tricky when it's rap and you've got like 12 words to the speed of one normal word or something crazy like that. Uh so I had to listen, come back and listen to the soundtrack again, which I still listen to because I think it's an amazing soundtrack. I think what's amazing is a lot of us didn't know it that well as well. Like you you know, like we're taught in in in history what happened, but um, like you didn't remember what happened. But after seeing them the the um the musical, when I hear certain dates, they like 1776. I'm like, okay, this what happened, New York City. I can go down the you know, because Hamilton taught me, and I remember because of that, but we didn't know. And that's the amazing thing again. You see, that's what's relevant. It's how you remember things and how it relates to you. It's like, you know, there's so many of these uh uh musicals are the same. So I remember seeing Les Miserables for the first time in London. I've seen it dozens of times. I have had my own students appearing in it, and it is an amazing, an amazing musical. But the story is incredible, and the story's incredible. You know, little did we know, you know, we haven't read Les Miserables, we haven't read this massive thousand-page, you know, Victor Hugo classic, but we know the story now, and I think if we went back to now reading the the book, it would make more sense. Same with and the same with Miss Saigon, you know, do people realize that that's the same story as Madame Butterfly, for example? I don't know. I think there is so you know, there's so much you can go back on. When you look at Westside's story, I bet half the kids that that listen or watch Westside's story had no idea that it was anything to do with Romeo and Juliet. How does it relate to us? Yeah, but you but you know what I like, Russell? I love backstories. So when when Hamilton came out, I bought the book that he read that Lynn Manwell that Lynn Manuel read to be inspired by that. I bought the book. I haven't read it yet, but I bought it. But then I also bought the book from Lynn Manuel about the backstory of how he created Hamilton, and in that book, it tells us like all the different songs that he was inspired by and why he put this move into this thing, like that. It's so incredible. So I love reading to get into the brain of the composer or the writer or the lyricist. Like, I want to get into the brain because I want to understand, and I think by understanding why they did certain things, I think it makes me a better musician. Because I'm like, oh, that's a cool idea. Let me see how I can weave that into something that I do. What if I took this song and gave it this rhythm and then taught my kids? So for instance, my daughter needed to learn her prime numbers. She was in like third grade or something like that. And I was like, ain't no way in the world we can remember these numbers. But her teacher was like, Well, Maria, can you make a song about it? Uh yes, I can do that. And so I took the Lizzo beat from Truth Hurts and um, you know, wrote a little rap. My daughter helped me, we wrote a little rap about it, and then we just did all the numbers. And today, if you asked me about these numbers, I could run them down for you like that. Because I have to put it in a language that I understand. Well, I understand music. So anything I gotta remember, I'm gonna sing it. If I sing it, I got it, right? It's just those little things that that that help us as musicians. It's interesting what you're what we're saying here because we're talking about how things relate to each other and how you can go back and forth and associate with you know backstories or back to classical music. I I studied classical music when I was in my teens. I I have a huge passion for classical music, but I I ended up specializing in musical theatre in Broadway and show tunes and um and producing and MDing and conducting and so on, and and then moved into choral conducting more and more as I was directing larger ensembles. But so I constantly relate back from one to the other, one to the other, and I often think, oh, that reminds me of a Beethoven symphony or or it reminds me of uh, you know, Verdi Requiem or something else. And I think it's a great, a great advantage as a choral director, no matter the music you're conducting, to be able to make links between music because I think it makes us better musicians, it makes us appreciate music more in and in different ways. And that's something we can translate to our choirs. 1000%. Um, my choir, my choir, I probably get I probably get on their nerves with the things that I come up with, but I'll hear something, I'll be like, wait, do it like this, and think about this, da da da, or I'll hear something on TikTok, and I'll be like, boom, let me take that and let me teach theory from what I just heard on TikTok or something like that. Like, I stay inspired by watching other people and by and by listening to what they do, and it's it inspires me to be better. I have been in such a Michael Jackson rabbit hole since I saw the movie last week, right? And I'm so inspired by what he did as a musician. What he did, I've I've I've been watching all of his old concerts, I've been listening to all of his old albums, but just what he could do as a musician that it says it makes me want to be better. I just want to be better. If I'm better, then I teach my kids better. The more education I get, the better I can teach

Inspiration And Separating Art From Artist

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my students. It's funny, as as controversial as Michael Jackson is and always will be, because of his own personal life and the things that we hear in the media and the the things that come out of the woodwork and we hear about, it's not a case of we don't it's not everybody sort of forgiving everything or brushing it under the rug, but his music is so powerful and just so good that he really does deserve that title of king of pop. He does. I mean, if we if I could go biblical on you for a second, the the best uh musician in heaven was Lucifer. He was he was the best musician in heaven. His pitch, everything they they said when he would sing, or what I think it's when he was sing, they said it would sound like organs being played. He was the best musician in heaven. He eventually got kicked out because his head got too big, right? He thought he was more so they kicked him right on out. But he was the best. Gifts come. No matter if you're a good person or a bad person, that gift that's in you, it still comes out and it is still able to Leah. I hate to say this, but it's still able to bless people because of the gift. Now, the person, and this is not about Michael Jackson, but we could go back to all these people, we can go back through classical history and be like, you know, um, some of these composers were not the best. I mean, think of all the scandals of people who was cheating on their wives and doing these people weren't angels, but we still honor the gift. I could separate the gift from the person. Give me the gift. Well, they had controversial stories too, you know. And look at Mozart. Look at Tchaikovsky. You know, Tchaikovsky was in an era where, you know, being homosexual was was just, you know, no one was gonna listen to that. That was that was, you know, you were gonna die for that, you know, and and and and then you've got Mozart, who, you know, obviously died in a pauper's grave, despite being, you know, could could anyone be more genius than Mozart? You know, there's controversy everywhere. He was he was a child prodigy just like Michael. He was a child prodigy just like Michael. This is on my show. This is what is what I'm really saying, but but again, separating the gift from everybody has flaws. If we run through any of our uh biographies, there's some sections you'd be like, yeah, I don't know if I want you to show that part. Every single human being except for Jesus has those those flaws in their story. It's just those people are super famous, so their flaws get exposed more than than others. But my job is to to to listen to the gift. I'm I'm listening to your gift. I don't know what you did with other folks. I don't, I wasn't fair. I don't know. Um, but I'm I I love the gift. Now when you let's get back to music. When we get let's back back to our choirs. Now, when you when you're working with your choirs, do you have a type of music that you love to communicate with them that you are so passionate about yourself that you want to educate them on all the time? You just want to keep taking more of this music and more of this music. Is it gospel music? Is it pop music? Is it rap? What is the music? Or is it music? It's music. My students, um

Singing Across Genres With Integrity

34:01

my students, the majority who look like me, um, they have a people expect them to sing a certain type of music because they look like me. Um, and it's my job to shatter that expectation that they only can sing one genre of music. I am very, very passionate about showcasing that my students sing all genres and they sing all genres well. And so we talk about music as characters, um, not necessarily as genres, but as characters. Meaning, if we're singing um this piece from Bach, what's the character of this music? Um, let's think about the time period. So would they be really spread singing? How did they talk in a time period? Oh, well, they talked very tall. Okay, so that means our sound has to be very tall. That's the character of the music. Um, if this, if this is this, uh, if this portion has a crescendo and then a day crescendo, how do we emulate that? What's the character? We talk about it and talk about it like that because I need them to understand where the music is coming from. And if they understand that, then they'll understand the sound that they're supposed to give me. I hope this makes sense. Um gospel music is more of a spread genre, it's more east-west. So that means it still should be, it should have that east-west feeling, but there still should be a roundness to it because if it's too east-west, it sounds really young, and that's not the character that we're going for. What are the lyrics in this piece? What is that composer trying to get us to think about? What do we want the audience to know? How does this story relate to you? And I think that's my favorite thing to do, is to have them take the lyrics and then relate it to them. If you're singing, Precious Lord, take my hand, leave me on, let me stand, and let's just say you don't believe in God. You can never really get with that song because you don't believe in God. But is there somebody that you can believe in that if you were in trouble, you could call and they could come help you? One of my students was like, Oh, my grandmother. Okay, then in this instance, I need you to think of your grandmother. Don't think about the Lord if that's not your belief system, but think about your grandmother and then give me that that same feeling as though you were speaking to your grandmother. And then they like, oh my god, I feel it. So, what do you do when you when you're in a rehearsal um and you've got a new piece? Do you do you really hone in on the lyrics first and try and get people to to you know to work out how does it relate to them? Is do you do that first or do you teach the song first and then we go to the lyrics and then we understand it and try and connect with it? Is it that that creates the emotion of the song by being able to, you know, really relate to it in your in your own life? Yes, but if there's

How Maria Teaches A New Piece

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a recording, the first thing we do is listen to it. We we are oral learners first. That's how we learned the alphabet, that's how we learned how to count and all those things. You learned it by ear first. So we listen to it first. And then once we listen to it, um then we we we start to tackle it. And we get into um again, I have I have a lot of mixed, I have mixed kids in my choir, mixed, meaning some who can read, some who cannot read. So we do a little theory, trying to figure out like the keys and things like that. We um they are all very good at rhythm. So we write in rhythms first, and then we look at it, and then we start to sing, sing through it, and things like that. Um, I don't have a lot, a lot of my students are not sight readers off the back when they first come to me. So I don't start with sight reading. I know some people are gonna be like, oh my god, you should start. My students aren't there. You gotta know who you're teaching. My kids are not there. They will be, but they're not there yet. Um, so we we we work it. And then once they have it, once they have the lyrics and the rhythm, once they have it, then we go into the soul of it. So we don't go into the soul first. I need you to learn it first. Then once you learn it and have an understanding, now let's get to the soul of the piece. Now let's understand why there's a crescendo right here, why there's a decrescendo, why this, why, why they accented this portion of it, why that's important. But that's after that we've gotten through the the meat and potatoes of the piece. And everyone's interpretation is going to be different, isn't it? It is. But as a choir, we can find one that we can relate to together. Again, it's all about the story. What is the story that we're trying to tell? If the piece is uh Domine Deus, what is the story that we're trying to tell? Well, first of all, what is it what does it even mean? Why do we keep having songs that have these words and what what does it mean? So we get we get into all of that, and then that helps inform um how we sing it. So you're known as girl conductor. How did that come about? So um when I was younger, I knew I wanted to be, I didn't know the term conductor, but I knew I wanted to be a professional choir director. And um I was go, we our field trips were always to the symphony as as a child. We always went to the symphony. We would dress up in big fluffy dresses and stuff and go to the symphony, which is really cool. And I always loved watching the conductor. I loved it. But

Why Girl Conductor Exists

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I didn't know how to be a conductor, I didn't know the path, right? And so I remember when I first started directing the choir, I knew I had my moment. I had my moment. This is what you're supposed to do for the rest of your life, right? But I still didn't know the path of being a conductor. So I asked my um high school choir teacher, I said, I want to be a conductor. How do I get to do that? And she said, I don't know the path, but you can be a music teacher. And I was like, mm-mm, I don't want to do that. I don't want to be a classroom teacher. Nothing against classroom teachers. I love you all. But those kids were so mean to her, and she and she like she never responded to them being mean, and I was like, I don't, I don't think I can take that. So I don't want to do that. So I started in business. I I worked for a telephone company, AT ⁇ T, and and worked in business. And years later, start um directing a children's choir at my church, and um fell in love with it again and decided I wanted to go and get my music degree. Well, while I was on the path to get my music degree, I never saw females on the on the podium. I would see them as choir directors, but I never saw them like standing in front of like the orchestras or whatnot. And I definitely didn't see black females being on the podium. And I said, I want to I want to do that. I want to be on the podium conducting choirs and symphonies. I want to do that. And I'm a girl, and I need other girls to know that we do this. So that's where girl conductor came from. It it came from wanting other girls to be able to see themselves in spaces where I didn't see myself. And it wasn't about black girls or white girls, it wasn't about any of that. It was just girls seeing themselves in this in this space. For a lot of kids, I'm the first, I'm the first black female conductor that they meet. I take a lot of honor in that, and I take a lot of I take a lot of pride and a lot of humility in that. I know they sound like an oxymoron to say both of those things together, but I do, I'm humble because I want to make sure I do a good job to show you what's possible. But the pride of, yeah, this is excellence, and it comes from somebody who looks like you. I absolutely love that. I love the idea of someone who has this vision of wanting to do something and then makes it happen. Uh, and sometimes against the odds, and you know, to break the you're absolutely right. I mean, it only in the last few years have more female conductors uh come to the to the forefront of orchestral conducting, um, and very few black female conductors. Um, there's no reason why not. You know, we're we're all in this together, and there's no reason why, you know, anyone, anyone can do anything in this world that they put their mind to. They should never be restricted. But you know what? Times have changed, and this is something that I always tell my students and my own children as well. The time of waiting for somebody to to acknowledge you or to say you should be doing those days, they are over. Social media has blew all of that out the water. You literally can can show your work to anybody all over the world. Show your work. I mean, that's how you found me. Show your work, and then people see that and then they hire you. But when you show up, you better show up excellent. You better show up knowing that knowing that you can do the job, right? But put yourself out there. Them days of waiting for somebody to look at your resume. Social media is now your resume. Put yourself out there, show what you can do, be excellent. The days for being mediocre and all that kind of stuff, let other people do that. You go be excellent in everything that you do. Absolutely. Always

Social Media As Your Resume

43:24

be the best you can do. Always be the best you can be. Do everything 100% to your ability. Absolutely 100%. Do you uh do you have aspirations for your choirs? What would you love to see them do? What would you love to see them achieve? So one of uh one of my aspirations was filled this year. We have the Missouri Music Educators Association conference that happens uh in Missouri in January. And over the past 60 years, I have not seen a predominantly, predominantly African American choir, uh High school choir, Grace That Stage.

Big Goals For Young Singers

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And that's something that I really wanted to showcase to my state that there are choirs that come from low-income schools that are able to sing with excellence and worthy of being a part of this conference. And they may not know how to read music, but they can do the same material that these choirs that read music can do. And so this past January, we were selected and we showed out. I mean, we performed six genres, six different genres of music with excellence. They were locked in, as they as the kids say, they were locked in in every song. And when we finished, there were people who were in tears saying how they how they felt, they just they just felt the spirit of the children that were singing. So that's that's one thing that I that I'm very proud of, not for me, but for them, for my kids to experience that level of excellence. So I would love to, I'd love that we were able to do that. I would love to take them on a tour around the world so that so they can see the world. For many of them, sometimes their first experiences outside of St. Louis are with me. Um and that's something that again, I take, I take a lot of I take a lot of pride of being a person that can show them what's beyond uh your four walls. So I would love to, if I had all the money in the world, I would take them kids all around the world so they could just see that the world is bigger than St. Louis, bigger than Missouri, bigger than United, bigger than you, bigger than the United States. And they can see what all the world has to offer. And it certainly does. What an absolute privilege it has been to talk with you today. Thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing just this amazing conversation. Honestly, I could carry on talking with you for hours and hours and hours and hours. I really hope we get to meet one day and talk in person. We will! Don't worry about that. We will. That's gonna happen. Maria, thank you so, so much. It's been an absolute delight to talk to you. It's been my honor. Thank you for having me. Wow, what a wonderful, wonderful lady. Such a pleasure talking with the wonderful Maria A. Ellis. Thank you so much for listening to the Choir Director Podcast. It's been wonderful having you here today. And if you found today's conversation valuable, please take a moment to leave us a rating and review. It genuinely helps us reach more choir directors and grow this community together. And don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if you know a fellow director who'd benefit from today's conversation or any of the amazing

Final Thanks And Listener Actions

46:47

guests we've had on the show, please share it with them. It means the world to us and it could make a huge difference to them. To stay connected between episodes so you never miss a thing and receive exclusive content, do join our mailing list. The link is in the show notes. And if you have a question about today's topic or any of the topics that we're covering, perhaps a question to our guest or something you'd love us to explore on a future episode, you can email the studio or leave us a voicemail. Both links are waiting for you in the show notes. Well, thanks again for being part of the Choir Director Podcast. I'm Russell Scott, and until next time, goodbye.