Welcome And Guest Overview

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Welcome to the Choir Director Podcast, the essential resource for choir directors, conductors, and vocal leaders who want to build stronger choirs, run better rehearsals, and create outstanding musical experiences. Well, a very warm welcome back to the choir director podcast with me, Russell Scott. This is episode 17. I'm really thrilled to be back here this week. It's uh still quite cold and drizzly uh outside at the moment. You'd never believe we're in the middle of summer here in London, but hey-ho, we have to put up with it, I guess. And here I am in the studio talking with you today. And I'm really glad to be presenting this show today with another fantastic guest ahead. Today's guest is Susan Cox, director of the Grand Union Community Choir. She brings a rare combination of community choir leadership and long experience in music education. She's taught in schools, worked at Bedfordshire Music, and led Central Bedfordshire's music service and hub alongside directing GUCC. And in this episode, you'll hear practical ways to build confidence in mixed experienced singers, tighten ensemble sound through simple rehearsal routines, and sustain a healthy choir culture over the long term. And we also talk about how age affects choir, how different people of different ages cope with rehearsals, with learning, and with

Susan’s Path Into Choral Leadership

SPEAKER_00 1:28

performance. Well, a warm welcome to Susan Cox. I'm really delighted you've joined me today. And you're based in the sort of heart of England in Bedfordshire. Have you have you always been in that area?

SPEAKER_01 1:41

No, uh I lived in Devon for seven years, uh, but predominantly, yes, it's been around this area, working in Bedfordshire, Leighton Buzzard, and the uh the surrounding counties.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Now, one of the one of the reasons I wanted to talk with you today and invited you onto the show was because I wanted to talk about the real community aspect of choirs and to talk about how how things have changed for you over the years as you've grown as an educator, as a choral leader, and and how you've matured as as a choir leader and how that's helped your choirs to develop within the community as well. Tell us a little bit of background, first of all, about you and how you got into music and how you became an educator.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

I've always taught music um since graduating from university uh and loved choral work. Um I was fortunate enough at one point to be took working in an independent school and was sent on a course uh with ABCD to start looking at choral leadership, and that really sparked my interest in that not only was I standing in front of the classroom, but I was starting to think about how to help and shape those voices. And that love of choral music has been with me uh throughout my teaching career. So, having taught in interestingly, um in Devon and then up in Leighton Buzzard, uh I moved into the music service where I became the vocal strategy coordinator there, which was wonderful. It gave me a lot of opportunities to go on courses and find out myself about uh choral leadership or vocal leadership, but also look at ways I could support and help teachers in schools. Um, and I'm very much about uh wanting to facilitate and create opportunities for other people to grow, be they a singing leader or a singer, um, and that I suppose drove me throughout my uh working life within the music service, and when I retired in 2017, um I've really been able to devote myself to the adult choral work in uh world rather in which I uh now operate. I run a community choir which began in 2009, um, still has a lot of the original singers in it. They like me have aged with time. Um, I also run an upper voices uh group of about 26 lovely ladies. I take a Singing for Well-being group on a Monday morning, which is um very much for those uh in the retired world who want to get their week off to a good start, and it covers uh or rather uh draws in a lot of uh of people from different backgrounds with different needs, and singing unites us as it does obviously with all the other choirs, and then there's a a U3A group. And I just love the fact that, irrespective of your age, be you a young singer uh or an older uh singer, your voice allows you to be part of a group, and um your individuality is important within the team work. Um, I often say to people, it's like being being like an ingredient in a cake. Um, when you put out your ingredients, they're all quite ordinary on their own, and you wouldn't decide that you were going to just eat one, but join them together and you get this lovely end result. And I feel that's the joy of bringing people together. Their background doesn't matter, their health doesn't matter. What matters is that moment when they open their mouth, join with others, and just fall into the beauty of song. Um, and quite often one will arrive at a rehearsal as a singing leader feeling tired, but once you're involved, you're there, you just get those endorphins running, and uh, I think it's just the most marvellous experience that you share with others. And I'm passionate about um about encouraging everyone to use their voice. I I'm shocked by the number of adults who say to me, Oh, but I can't sing, I was told at school I shouldn't do this, I shouldn't do that, and it it breaks my heart really, because we all have a voice, but our voice is very precious and it's got to be respected. And as a choir leader, as a vocal leader, irrespective of the ages that you have in front of you, it's really important to um be mindful of who is there, that they're sharing an inner part of themselves with you, and that you've got to nurture and care for that, um, caring for them as well.

Age, Memory, And Singer Anxiety

SPEAKER_00 6:35

So, do you think do you think there is a difference in the way that we teach more mature singers compared to younger singers? And do you do you think it's perceived in a different way as well? How do you feel the differences are between teaching more mature singers against perhaps youth uh singers or children or or even young adults?

SPEAKER_01 6:56

I was always fascinated by the speed in which um young children in particular would grasp lyrics and melody uh without needing any prompt, how they would use their oral skills and just absorb it. And it's fascinating that um as as people age, that immediate uh receptiveness seems to diminish somewhat. And I'm noticing with the older voices, and when I'm talking, I mean, obviously I've got a cross uh age group within the um the choirs, um, but as people are moving into their late 60s, 70s, 80s, there is a growing anxiety and lack of um sometimes lack of self-belief. Uh they worry more, there's more sense of anxiety. And I noticed it also in myself, quite interestingly, uh, that things that you just took for granted when you were younger, suddenly you're thinking about a lot more. So with the older singers, I still do uh a lot of the warm-ups uh as I would with younger ones. I'm just mindful that sometimes they might need more visual cues or clues. Uh, sorry, they may need the music more. Even if they don't read music, they like to have something there. Um comfort banket. Memorize it is the comfort banket, isn't it? And um if I memorization can be a real issue, um, such that it worries some so much it almost puts them off. So I'm mindful in terms of uh what I ask for that. Obviously, I'm talking about certain individuals within a group, so don't think I'm thinking it's not all of them, it's it's just trying to be aware of uh of who is there. So I think um I take a lot longer in um going over things. I think there's an awful lot more repetition. Um younger people will will grasp some of the ideas quite quickly and remember them, whereas I do feel there's quite a lot of repetition with the older ones. Um, but I love I love the fact that they're there, their their faces are reflecting their enjoyment. Um, they want to succeed, they want to do things. So my role is to make sure they feel confident and um and able to sing healthily and well and to the best of their abilities.

Performing Without Music On Stage

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Do you think that um do you do you think age does play a big part in all of this? I want to make this all about age, but I think it's a really interesting topic actually. And I I it's interesting because I I know plenty of young people who turn around and say, Oh, I can't remember words, and I can't remember this, and I can't remember lyrics, and I can't remember the way things go. And you know, people like to use their music because what you know it is a comfort blanket, particularly in performance, but of course, when you use music in performance, it then takes away that engagement with the audience, uh, because you know, uh choral singers tend to look down at their music, and that's that's what we do. You take it away and they suddenly start panicking, but then they get more engaged with the audience, and then perhaps the performance is more exciting. How how do you how do you get over those kind of challenges? Because as you say, you know, you know, you're finding that people are particularly more mature singers, are some of them are taking longer to learn, picking things up, having to repeat more often, which is great in rehearsal, provided we have the time, of course. But how do we deal with the challenge of performance and getting them off book?

SPEAKER_01 10:32

I agree with everything you've said about singing away from the page and the engagement that's there. Uh, and for me, I will ask them to learn certain pieces, uh, the simpler ones, um, often to prove to themselves they can do it. Uh and a couple of times we've been involved in a local um community choir festival, and for that they've learnt their pieces um you know off by heart. So they've managed a 20-25-minute programme, uh, but uh the amount of encouragement has been massive. Um, so I'm mindful that I can't put on a whole concert, and I think because we haven't been used to learning, I think if you come from a culture where you've always memorized, then you just automatically do it. I think starting to ask people um later on in life to suddenly memorize something is more challenging. And I will be honest, the worst person for memorising anything is me. So um I'm not a good lead by example, and I I need my music there. Um so I do I do understand the anxieties that some of them experience, and I want them to sing, I want them to share their music. So um on those occasions when I do say, please, no music if at all possible, if I have got someone who is going to get really stressed and not sing, then I will say, you know, hold it. Um, but try not to look at it. In fairness, they've managed, just knowing that they could have it, and they've sorted that out.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

Um I think it's very I think it's a very tricky, a tricky uh area really, and because I th I think a lot of a lot of choirs use music, and there's nothing, you know, we shouldn't shouldn't uh say that these choirs are you know not great because they read music. You know, it different choirs have have different ways of working. You know, you'll have some choirs that don't work with music at all, and they just work with lyric sheets and they learn those off off book. Uh you get some some that are doing everything by rote, and then we have some that are, you know, doing more can more more traditional ways of of learning and performing SATB and more classical perhaps as well. I think there are different ways, and I don't think there's I don't think it's a case of one one fits all. And I th I think that I know I can speak for my own choirs actually, that we we always used to use music when the choir began. My choir's been going for 16 years. Um we started with music, we still use music to this day, but we we always had music and we always performed with music, and gradually over time, more and more people have wanted to get off book. And of course, that causes a bit of a rift, I think. I think for for choirs wanting to suddenly move from one way of working to another, you know, everybody starts reacting and anxiety kicks in. And I think people get very stressed and very self-conscious, and and they're worrying about how they're gonna learn something and the amount of that they're gonna have to learn, and what if they forget, and what if they make a mistake. And I think it's it's more about the engagement and getting off book because you can perform better without the music in front of you. You can engage with the audience more uh in front of you, and it's taken us a very long time, but now people say to me, When are we getting off book? You know, can we do this off book as soon as possible because it gives us longer to practice it and learn it? But of course, you have to know the notes, don't you? You have to know the music before you can get off book, and that can take a longer time. And there's still anxieties from some people, in some cases, in some music, and it's it's very difficult.

Expectations, Confidence, And Identity

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Do you think there is a psychological barrier to all this? Do you think that it's not just about capability, it's not just about age? Because I think people of all ages can struggle with learning words, and uh, you know, you you're dealing with all sorts of people with different anxieties and backgrounds, and perhaps uh you know they could be autistic or dyslexic or have learning issues. You know, you're dealing with all kinds of people. Do you think that the psychological aspect is greater than the capability aspect?

SPEAKER_01 14:42

That's a very interesting question, and one I think I'd probably need to mull over a lot more. Um, but in your description of all the different choirs, um you've touched on the fact that yes, there are choirs who can sing completely without music, and choirs who sing with, uh some who do in between. And and I've had to accept over time that much as I admire choir leaders who can sing completely away from the music, um, it's not something I can do. And therefore, am I right to be asking the group in front of me to be doing something I cannot do? And that's been um that's been a question that's that's been in my mind for a lot of time. Uh and I think as a vocal leader, as a choir leader, you are very aware of other um approaches, other skill sets in those around you, and if you're not careful, you can completely lose your own self-confidence in what you do. Um, and it certainly happened to me, and I've had to take a stand back and think, I wish I could do this, I wish I could do that, but I am me, this is what I can do, and my role is to encourage those singers who are coming to their rehearsals, and at the end of the day, they're coming to the rehearsals 30 times in the year, and they want a positive, happy, musically um satisfying experience. And I fell into the trap a few years ago of focusing on exactly how I wanted my performance to be, and slightly losing an awareness of who was standing in front of me and the capability of that particular group. Um and it took me a while to appreciate that the frustration I was finding was less because they couldn't do it, but and more because I was asking the group to respond or wishing them to respond to me in a way that was beyond their um collective musical skill set. Uh it's not to say some of them could. And I think you've just in describing all the different groups, you've also hit on the fact that there are lots of different styles of choir leader, and and my message to the choir leaders would be be true to yourselves, and if your group cannot do something that another group can, focus on on the positives in what you are creating. So when coming back to performance, which was your question, um I want them to get as much enjoyment out of sharing their music with others in the performance. But ultimately, I want them to feel proud, uh, to feel confident, to be as musically capable as they possibly can be. So we will have worked on shaping watching me, heads out of copies, I'd have pranced about, I'll have done all sorts of things to attract their attention, and then they may even do it in you know, in our rehearsals just leading up to the concert. So I haven't cracked it to have everybody watching me all the time. I'm not sure I ever shall. But I am so pleased with those singers for whom a performance was just a step too far, they couldn't bring themselves to stand in front of others, and now they do. And I want to keep giving them the building blocks to help them because having a rehearsal is one wonderful experience. Having a performance or having an audience, as you say, takes that rehearsal into a completely different scope. Um, but for me, I suppose I'm going to say it's the individual's musical journey that matters very much. And it's taken me a while to get to that because it used to be about what I wanted them to sound like at the end. And I won't deny that sometimes I feel frustrated, but I think it challenges me more to think how can I get the best out of this group that's in front of me so that everyone feels proud of our final product.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

I I absolutely love your honesty and your transparency and this self-awareness that I think a lot of choir directors perhaps wish they had more of. Because there often isn't enough time to think about your own being and how and and what what you're doing, and what you're always thinking about what you're providing to others and the experience you're giving them and what you want out of it at the end, that you don't actually think about perhaps yourself more, about what being true to yourself and being able to deliver really the the the person you are, you want to deliver that person because the choral leader, that choir director is the front man or front woman, it's the front per it's the front person, and we'll say that now. Um, you know, you're you're you're the person leading this. Everyone is looking up to you, and on stage, you are representing uh this these amazing organizations, these choirs of ours. And I I I I think it takes a lot to really think about who you are as a choir director, who you want to be, and what you're able to give. Because there's so much expectation, isn't there? There's so much expectation from your from your choir, and there's so much expectation from the choral world, I think, in many ways. And every choir leader is different. Um, every choir leader has their own way of doing things and what they want to achieve. Some choir directors take are taking things very seriously and doing things on world-class stages. Some choir directors are working in pubs, uh running a pub group, and then there's the wonderful, massive amount of choirs in the middle, our community choirs, that have been massively important to well-being and and health and all the great things that we get out of singing. Do you think there was a moment, a turning point, when you realized that people were gaining confidence because of the way you were actually being? Do you think it was it was you, it was something that happened that made you that that suddenly you thought, wow, I'm doing this, and this is having a massive effect on the people in my choir.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

I've been on a number of choral conducting courses, and I've come back and I've wanted to put into practice the choral leadership skills that I've been given. And there's the realization that sometimes when you're working in front of or when you're in a a training situation with um highly skilled colleagues who are your singers at the other side, you can um Work on gesture and interpretation in quite a different way to the groups that might be in front of you, be that children or adults. And I think it's always about adapting slightly and changing. And I think at one point I got too serious with I want this, and I wasn't. I suddenly realized that you know, in terms of this, the group I was working with, that particular group, I was asking too much. And therefore I was feeling frustrated and I was failing and I was not good at what I was doing and why was I doing it. And then it was a case of step back and think, but these people are coming every week and they're enjoying what you're doing. What were you doing before that enabled them to achieve? Um, and actually, it was a lot more of the signing, uh the pitch matching, just simple things rather than the more um intricate choral uh leadership uh conducting that you would do with a more um advanced group. Um and I had to look at myself in terms of what I was achieved, wanting to achieve. I was I was trying to superimpose skills on a group for whom it wasn't appropriate. I have another group who I can do it with, and I had to sort of suddenly realize, you know, I'm I'm I'm not being fair to the first group. Um we are suddenly in a different place. There's a lot of laughter, there's a lot of fun. They go out, they've had a great time, but I felt they've really learned, and it's been fascinating looking at the change of um skill set, development, musicality, and end product of each of the pieces. Um, because I suppose I've relaxed and also understood that I've just got to amend what I'm doing to match what they require.

Repetition, Planning, And Relaxed Sound

SPEAKER_00 24:04

You uh we we spoke briefly about about this self-awareness idea. I mentioned that a a few minutes ago, and uh self-awareness is very, very important. Do you find yourselves you're do you find yourself, however, getting frustrated when things take longer than you're hoping for them to develop? You know, when you're teaching and it and you're having to this repetition, do you find yourself getting getting frustrated as a result? Because you're you're very in uh excuse the the pun, very in tune with your own feelings and your own ability and your own the way that you're coming across and you're trying very much to listen uh to people and and watch them, I don't mean musically, but you're trying to look at them as people and seeing how are they learning, how are they receiving what I'm doing, what can I change to make it better for them, what can I do to give them a great experience? Do you get do you find that that at times you want to go faster than they're actually able to, and you get frustrated?

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Uh I have done very much in the past, and I would say it possibly goes back to um you know last year, really, where various things happened, and then I I I've totally changed my attitude um and my level of expectation, and in so doing, they seem to be so much better. Um I think I'd lost humour with one group, I'd lost the ability to smile as much as I was, and um and I I I feel more relaxed. I'm enjoying my my uh rehearsals far more now. Um they're very well planned. I'm I have to I am a planner, I have to write down what I require, you know what I'm wanting. I take notes of what hasn't quite worked in a rehearsal, and then that will become a uh a warm-up or an area that we focus on in the next um next rehearsal. I'm mindful now that one group in particular like coming back to pieces they've learnt in the past and they can then really refine those. Whereas another group is very quick at picking things up, can interpret interpreting is is quite musically um different. Uh and and I've got to sort of take almost split myself and behave one way with one and different way with another, and then when I'm working with my um music for well-wheel being groups, that's very much a relaxed enjoyment, uh, but making sure that they're um still technically achieving the best they can be, so that again it's safe singing, it's healthy singing, so that um the the end result is lovely. And interestingly, the group that doesn't perform at all I would say is has one of the best sounds out because I think they're just totally relaxed.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

Isn't that isn't that amazing though? Because uh because ultimately you want you want the choir to relax, but it's very difficult to get them relaxed when they're nervous about performing or trying to remember words or want to or want to perfect every little eleven uh element of of what they're doing in their music. Yet the more relaxed they are, the better the performance you get ultimately. Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Absolutely. So so within within the other rehearsals, it is about also that smiling, that engagement that you know you're doing really well. I love what is what's happening, even if inside it's like you haven't quite done that one, but it's they do respond, don't they, so much to the choir leader, to the choir leader's face. And I have caught myself in in a past uh experience thinking, Susan, you need to smile, keep smiling, keep smiling, just to keep everybody going within that performance. So um you've got to be so mindful of the facial uh expressions that you're giving off. And I know my face is one that people say you know they can sort of tell what's going on. Sometimes that's quite tiring when you're thinking, Oh no, what's happened here, or whatever, but it's it is about that encouragement, isn't it? And you're right, the more relaxed they feel, because the worst thing you can have is tension in your body when you're singing, and if you're tense and you're anxious, then it's all going to come through into your voice. So it's it's trying to work on your own relaxation at the front, remembering everything. And this is where I know my skill set is not as good as others. I can't remember it. I will need to look down, I'll need to be looking at them, and there's so much going on in your head as a choir leader. Um, but the most important thing is keeping that lovely group of people together as a team and making them feel that they can achieve something great.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

People people can read us like a book sometimes, and it's some for some of us it's very difficult not to show the exact expression on our faces for how we're feeling. People know when I'm when I'm conducting, they know exactly what's going on, even if I don't want them to know how I'm feeling. They know how they know how I'm feeling inside, because they can read everything, and some some of us are more readable than others. Have you ever watched yourself on a on a video? Do you do you ever do that? Because I I often say to command directors, why don't you you know point a camera at yourself and watch yourself one day? Because it's really interesting to see how you work, because you don't see how you work, you are just working. But if you actually watched yourself in a rehearsal, I wonder what you'd actually what what you'd actually think. You know, do you think we should do that? Do you think we should film ourselves?

SPEAKER_01 29:29

Well, it is very helpful, and one of our groups is recorded every week so that if somebody misses a rehearsal, they can catch up. And it does make you realise how poor one's stance can be, or if you're wearing glasses and you're bending over and you're looking at your music stand, um, how you're not necessarily showing the best posture. Uh, but no, it it is it's a it's a great tool. Equally, it can highlight those things that you can't do. So you just have to just have to be true to yourself, and you know, if if something's not quite right, well, see if you can put it right, but keep going.

Career Highlights And Advice For Leaders

SPEAKER_00 30:08

Um what have been some of your your career highlights with uh with your choirs? What have you enjoyed really, you know, most of all in the in the so many years? I mean to remind me, how many how many years have you been doing this now? Because it's a long time you've been working in this industry.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

Um well, I suppose it goes back to 1981, really. So, yes, I'm I'm one of the old yes, coming to probably probably coming to the end of my choral career in the end.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

Surely not. I don't think that could ever be the case. But I but how how you know can you think of some time, some some projects, some concerts, some performances where you've just thought, this is what I've wanted, this is what I've always wanted to do, this is what feels so great.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

Yes, if I go back, um there are there are numerous ones that I can think about. Um, with the young people having 300 children on stage, all singing together, all without their music, um, as many music hubs are doing, you know, bringing them those sort of must experiences. Um, seeing the little person on the front row who maybe um behavioural-wise is uh a challenge within school, but is completely involved in their singing or has become a young singing leader, and just seeing the transformation that song can do. Um, so yes, numerous, numerous memories of um massed events. Um taking different groups to large uh experiences, um taking a group to Carnegie Hall, taking a group last year to um St. George's Chapel, Windsor to sing within a you know a larger uh choir that was made up of different ones, um, or incredibly special, giving people opportunities to sing um and maybe to do something as an ordinary person in an extraordinary setting, but but equally um to be singing carols together or to be singing in a concert in our local church and to see the joy on their face. Um so there are there are lots and lots of different sorts super special and and special in a a general way, if I may say it like that, like that.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

And with with the you know 40 plus years that you've had working in this industry, you must, you know, you you've got you've you've grow gained a huge amount of wisdom for sure for certain. And and the way you've been sharing all this amazing advice and knowledge with us today is is amazing. It's been wonderful talking with you. Do you do you have some tips for perhaps younger, less experienced choir directors out there that are starting out with their choirs and growing their choirs? Are there sort of some tips you've learned along the way that have been absolutely a pinnacle to the success of your own career?

SPEAKER_01 33:04

I think I've always been very aware of what others are doing. I believe very strongly in in um in CPD and in continued professional development. I would uh say, you know, go on as many courses, watch as many people as you can. You you learn by observation a lot of the time, don't you? But you also have to do yourself. Um and I I think be open to other ideas, don't be afraid to try things out, but above all, don't stop believing in yourself because it's very easy to be overwhelmed by all that you see and maybe feel that you're you're not good enough. So take care that this the um imposter syndrome doesn't set in. Um and remember that you are someone who's passionate about song and that you want to share that passion with others, and the fact that you're prepared to do it is really important, and you're important, so keep doing it. And if you're you're doing something different to other colleagues, well, keep growing, but stay true to yourself.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

Wow, great advice, really great advice. It's been absolutely fantastic talking with you today. Thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing all these great stories and all this wisdom with us. Wish you all the best and and thanks again.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

Thank you.

Stay Connected And Support The Show

SPEAKER_00 34:30

Thank you so much for listening to the Choir Director Podcast. It's been wonderful having you here today. And if you found today's conversation valuable, please take a moment to leave us a rating and review. It genuinely helps us reach more choir directors and grow this community together. And don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if you know a fellow director who'd benefit from today's conversation or any of the amazing guests we've had on the show, please share it with them. It means the world to us and it could make a huge difference to them. To stay connected between episodes so you never miss a thing and receive exclusive content, do join our mailing list. Link is in the show notes. And if you have a question about today's topic or any of the topics that we're covering, perhaps a question to our guest or something you'd love us to explore on a future episode, you can email the studio or leave us a voicemail. Both links are waiting for you in the show notes. Well, thanks again for being part of the Command Director Podcast. I'm Russell Scott, and until next time, goodbye.