Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Welcome to the Commander Director Podcast, the essential resource for commer directors, conductors, and vocal leaders who want to build stronger combiners, run better rehearsals, and create outstanding musical experiences. And a big warm welcome back. This is episode 18 of the Commander Director Podcast with me, Russell Scott. And it's great to be back this week with another special guest. A big thank you once again to all those people who have been getting in contact with us, just saying some wonderful things about the show and how much they're enjoying it, and uh coming up with lots of questions and ideas for the show. It's really fantastic to have such wonderful feedback, and I'm really grateful for all the communication. So if you want to get in contact with us, do get in contact with us. I'd love to hear from you. All the details of contact in the studio are in the show notes. And we've got some wonderful guests lined up in the next few weeks ahead, as well as some special episodes giving you some help and some ideas for running your choirs more smoothly, more efficiently, and well just giving you lots of ideas and tips and inspiration for running your choirs. Now, back to today's show, and we have a very special guest. I'm joined by the wonderful Peter Futcher, choral conductor, composer, and educator behind Choir Matters. Peter is artistic director of Canterbury Chamber Choir, musical director of Thanett Chamber Choir and Southwaves Choir, and spent 16 years as a tenor lay clerk at Canterbury Cathedral. In this episode, we talk about gesture and sound and what makes a rehearsal genuinely come alive and why he believes choirs should aim to be less ordinary. And a big warm welcome, Peter, to the show. Thank you so much for joining us, and thank you so much for getting in touch. I think you you heard one of the first episodes of the podcast and uh decided to get in touch.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Absolutely, yeah. It's um it's uh the there aren't many of them uh that serve our kind of industry and choral music, so I was excited to see that you were out there.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Thank you very much. And uh you have a you have a huge accolade of titles uh and uh and great accomplishments to your name. Uh tell us all about

Peter’s Musical Roots In Church

SPEAKER_01 2:10

tell us all about Peter Futcher.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Uh well, basically, I uh I was one of those children. I think I was I was sent away to a church when I was about five or six years old, uh, to a Sunday school, uh I think for childcare uh by my uh by my mum and dad. Uh they didn't go to church. Um and um I made the mistake of singing loudly uh the hymns, I think, and ended up in the choir very quickly uh and grew up through a traditional Anglican church in in England and then sort of followed that pathway through being a chorus scholar and uh and off to university. And then church music has been a big part of my life, but also every other part. And I'm one of those people that sort of made the sensible decision to go into education. I actually really like working in education by day in schools, as well as being uh a freelance musician uh by night and at the weekends. So I'm I'm head of music in the school and uh a pastoral lead uh head of ES7, but also run uh four choirs and um and do as much singing and playing, conducting as I can.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

So music is your life. I mean, it's uh there's nothing else. I mean, it we're all learning and educating and teaching and and doing all of those things all at the same time, and you're doing you know, you're doing what you love.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Sure, exactly, exactly that.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

And and clearly, as you know, as educators, we we inspire people. That's our our job as part of educating them and teaching them and trying to, I suppose, transfer some of our own knowledge and wisdom. Uh, we're trying to inspire people. And do you find do you find it um a different way of teaching when you're teaching and inspiring young people to working with with adults?

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Do you know? I think I think it comes from, and I've heard this in some of your other uh other with other your other uh guests, it comes from the passion. Uh whatever the thing is, you know, I think I think good teachers, good educators uh are there because they love the thing, whether they're things maths or French or or or music. Well, you know, if if

Building Play Into Serious Rehearsals

SPEAKER_00 3:55

you're if you're selling it uh uh because you love it and you want to share it, I think that that's the root of it for me, really. So I think it's not that dissimilar at all. And I think most adults enjoy play. I think playing nicely together is a thing, and we don't have enough of it. I think we lose it too soon, even with our children these days. Uh, and and what better way to do that than than in a rehearsal room?

SPEAKER_01 4:14

How can we how can we instill more of that playtime in rehearsals? Because rehearsals get pretty serious, don't they? I think I think choirs get serious even when you're trying not to be serious. I think as as uh choir directors, we take things very seriously and we're trying to do a job and get to the end result of producing something amazing, you know, worthy of performance. But how do we add more playtime uh and balance that so that we still do get that end result?

SPEAKER_00 4:40

I think one of the things, I mean, especially I think when you're working with amateur choirs, one of the things for me is to is to see myself, even if you're the paid help effectively, um, is to see myself as a part of that choir. You know, you're a part of that community. And so often we hear time and time again, don't we, with people making music in leisure time groups and those sorts of things, as well as in professional music, that that for many people this is their outlet in the week. This is the time when you leave your baggage at the door and you go in and you have a sing, you know, and you're breathing together and the energy is there together. I think that playfulness, uh, it's really music and some risk taking along the way. Uh, I'm quite a risk taker musically. I like to challenge sing, I'm a bit subversive, I think, which I think goes well with choral conductors on the whole. Um, and just to keep it playful at every every level and you know, like the people you're working with, enjoy the process, enjoy the music, don't be f scared of choosing the music you love because that's what you're sharing with them, and to play with it, you know, make it a bit less ordinary.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

How do you do that? What are the what are what tips can we offer people to to try and make things more playful? Because that's a funny term to use because and and I agree with it. I mean, we have to add our own personality, our own fun. You know, we try and be funny at times. We're on stage, choir directors on stage all the time. Um, but how do we make it more playful yet still get the results? Because if people are not taking it seriously and they're being too silly, you know, we don't get the results.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Yeah, I think I think it's it comes down to that preparedness. I think when you know something so well and you know what you want so well, um, you know, you're prepared to be flexible in the in the rehearsal environment. But I think when you're going in totally switched onto the music and excited about it, and excited about the end game as well as the process, and maintaining that and not being too sort of wizened to sort of being embedded in it for so long. I think just maintaining that that drive and and commitment to knowing where you are, then everything else sort of sticks to you, I think, along the way. I think people buy in more. Uh, and I think there's then time to, you know, to be to be playful, to, to, to sort of, you know, allow space within the rehearsal room. If you if you're asking for the same sort of things and you've got some consistency, I think sticking to your guns with certain things and knowing what you want sort of creates time. The one thing none of us have got is more time, is that we can't make time, but we can actually, you know, create space, I think. And I think I think choir alone is creating space for people. You know, no one had to go out on a Thursday night from seven till nine, uh, but they they've sort of made that space to do that, or rather than Pilates or whatever else it might be. So having made that space, I think we owe it to it to each other to sort of to fill that space, absolutely ram it with with you know, um, progress and posity and and and that playfulness that I sort of mentioned.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

It's interesting you use the term play playful and playtime because they're they're very uh very categorized uh characteristic of what we remember from primary school, perhaps. Going into the playground, being a bit silly, running around, burning off that energy, uh, you know, just all of that. It was called playtime, I suppose it still is to some degree. They call it break or whatever they call it. Um, but as adults, we don't we don't play so much, do we? We we take life so seriously. And and when we've when we've come you know out of work at the end of the day and we're a bit knackered and stressed, and we've we've rushed home to have dinner, and then we've got to rush out for choir, and you've then got to learn music. And it's very difficult, I think, to uh instill that fun element uh without losing time.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

I I think it can be, and I think some of that comes down to the fact that our target is the 24th of June at 7 pm or whatever it might be, and that's what we're working towards. Where actually, I think if you ask most singers, particularly within the kind of uh you know, uh uh leisure time music world and sort of amateur choirs, I think the process is as, well, we know because it's hard to get an audience, that actually even those days where it's just the angels in the church or or or whoever's in the corner of the hall or theatre that you're performing in, uh, you know, four people and a dog listening to you, it's still a great thing. And sometimes it's better uh because it's the culmination of that journey you had together. So I think it's it's you know, being mindful of the journey, not a destination. And that's as you know, in these worlds where we can't make time, I think that's a really crucial thing. Um there's nothing worse, is there, than a bad rehearsal or a rehearsal where the vibe's not right or you know, um something sticks and you can't fix it. But I think just keeping it agile and alive and uh and exciting and not being afraid to take some risks along the way, um, having an adventure is is all part of it for me. You know, we do this because we love it. I mean, part of the reason, aside from anything else, that that I've always maintained a day job, as it were, happens to be one I love, um, is that I can do the music making chorally, you know, regardless of whether I was paid, frankly. I love it. I enjoy singing, I enjoy being around singers, they're my people. Um, I like what we do together, uh, you know, and I think that journey is a really vital part of it for me.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

It's funny you mention about having an empty church, an empty hall, empty concert with four people in it. Because I one of one of the best concerts I ever did with a choir, many, many years ago, um, the uh the church that we were performing in uh decided to uh invite us as part of a festival that they were they were running, and they had publicity and marketing going on, and they said, Don't worry, we're gonna do all the marketing for you. It'll be, you know, you're gonna get

When Tiny Audiences Create Magic

SPEAKER_01 9:50

a full house. You know, that's what you're used to. Will don't worry, it'll be full. And we turned up there and they said, Oh, sorry, the um the marketing lady um was sick for a few weeks, so the m the posters didn't get out. And uh we were so prepped for this uh for this concert, and we did one of the best concerts we can remember. The choir still talk about it. There were about six people in the audience.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

I remember I have a very similar anecdote. Well, I went to Royal Holloway um back just before 2000, 90, 94, 97, and we were doing our you know end-of-year choir tour, which back then I things have changed, but back then it was self-funded, you know, it was basically a holiday with drinking and songs. Uh, and our two beasts of core repertoire were uh Vaughn Williams in G minor, so we took the English Mass and Foray Requiem. And we were doing it in France, we were all around Normandy. And the apex of this, having done Mont Saint-Michel and all his lovely places, was in Onfleur, in Onfleur, is this beautiful double knaved wooden church. And we were with, I don't know, one of the tour operators, and yeah, there'd been zero promotion. There was nobody. Uh, but arguably the end of that, and some of us were graduating or whatever else, it was uh, I think that was still probably the best concert that I took part in. And there was nobody there, it was just us, you know. And all it was was a you know, a an excellent rehearsal, excellent performance, I suppose, with no one speaking in between, and we sang, and and there was a magic to it, you know. I think there can be because it was actually about us, I suppose, as singers, and we liked each other and we'd been on the journey, um, and it didn't really matter. And yeah, we still talk about it 30 years old.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

And that's it. You've you you were completely relaxed, and it didn't matter. Uh you could just enjoy it, and it didn't matter what happened, and that's probably why it was such a great performance. Uh, and it was almost it was almost funny in a way. That it can work out like that.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

Do you do you think um, you know, you your your career has gone in various different ways? Obviously, you were trained as a singer, uh and you've been trained classically, uh, and a little bit in the same way I have, in that you've started as a singer and become a choir director, become a conductor. Um, what do you enjoy more at this point in your life?

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Uh this at this point is the conducting, and I have sort of gone through waves. You know, I I was fortunate to do orchestral conducting when I finished my degree. I went to the University of Surrey with

Singer To Conductor And Belonging

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Sebastian Forbes, and I hadn't done that before, I'd been mainly on the on the receiving side of being a singer. I mean, I played an orchestra, I played the flute at school, but only because I wanted to be in the orchestra and hang out with people. It wasn't I'd never really been the orchestral musician in that sense. So I was exposed to that. Um, and then I went through periods of where where you know conducting was the most important thing, and then I ended up landing in Canterbury, partly because of my day job. I was looking after the choristers in the choir house there. And of course, back then it was just boys and they were all boarding. Um, it's changed slightly now, of course. Uh, and um, and for 16, 17 years, I sang every day in Canterbury, and what a joy. But I found probably in that time I barely raised my arms in anger, you know, unless uh unless uh someone was putting on a charity event or something, or we just gather and do a thing. Um, and having done all of that, I kind of then having stopped being a lay clerk and singing every day, I was back into okay, well we'll get get back into the conducting again. So um at this point, I really, really love the conducting. I mean, I love going out and have a good sing, and I'll sing for anyone at any time, and I can you know can afford to because I have other jobs, I can turn up and do it for Curry still. I like that. Um could you could you just bang out a turn apart in Messiah for me at this core of society in the in in in you know Finland somewhere? Um and and I can do that. But um uh uh yeah, I I'm loving the conducting at the moment. But but as I said, I really see myself uh, and it's where I live now and I've been for some time, you know, and I have sort of family ties and friends and things in those groups. I see myself as part of those choirs, even though I'm the kind of you know appointed MD. And and I really love that because and and the truth is actually I'm a tenor and I tend to sing along anyway. Uh if not my part, then someone else's. I'm just it's just it's just a bad habit. I know some people hate that. It goes up right up there with people saying, Oh, you shouldn't mouth the words. Well, I'm doing better than that, I'm singing. Um, but um, it's quite a joy.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

I love that. Now, I think one of the things I am very interested in is um one of the ways that you rehearse is by having not the traditional SATB format, uh, where you position people when they're singing. So you have your tenors to your left.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

I like to have, yeah, sort of sheep and goats. I like to have the uh the gents around me. I mean, typically in a lot of amateur choirs, you haven't got so many of the lower parts, and obviously that it depending on their level of ability, and I'm really lucky to work across the whole range. And I mean I I

Rethinking SATB Layout And Listening

SPEAKER_00 14:15

love you know working with non-readers where you just and don't who don't sing in any other choirs, you just pour ideas in, they go, okay, uh, and they do. And I love working with the ones who can just sight read, and that's amazing too. But I really love to have them beside me. I find that um really helpful. I find it helpful for them for listening, particularly with a cappella things where they can hear things. So you sort of have the sopranos and autos out in front of you. Um, because rather than men providing that foundation the whole time, that you know, you they're actually getting it into their ears and singing back to a lady. So that can be helpful. I think that helps for the kind of you know, the communication around the group, um, particularly with the very good readers, because of course you have this sort of you're a bit torn. If you if you rehearse with uh a group every week where you're literally learning the notes from scratch, you're starting off as a kind of choir trainer, note basher, aren't you? And by the end you're you're you're conducting a concert. It might be the first time you conduct them, really, uh, especially if you're leading from the piano and that sort of thing. Um, but with the kind of very able readers, they're the ones that it's quite hard to get them to watch you. I mean, even if you pay professionals for things, it's quite hard to get them to look up sometimes. You're just in their periphery. And if you're trying to do something with gesture or whatever it might be, that can be really tricky. But actually changing that angle, I think, changes the viewpoint, and that's quite nice. And I think that goes uh for concerts as well, actually. I think people have become slightly bored of watching rows of of nicely dressed sopranos and altos and then tons and basses behind them uh in a church doing a thing. We know that, don't we? So we're trying, you know, we're always trying to do different things, whether it's immersive or in the round or or or shaking things up. And I think um, again, I think that's part of that playfulness, you know. And sometimes I mean it drives people mad when they've arrived and set the chairs out and they go, Oh, actually, uh, I'd like to have it differently this week. Um, okay. Um, and uh, you know, I just think it's part of the adventure really to try some different things. And sometimes you learn new things in that way, you know, when we're gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

Maybe I'll try it tonight. I've got a rehearsal tonight, and nobody's gonna be able to hear this today because it's not live. So maybe I'll try it. So they have no idea it will happen. It's interesting because I I I've rehearsed in in various different ways. It's a bit like orchestras, you know, when you work with a German orchestra or you work with a an American orchestra or a British orchestra, you know, the layout can be slightly different, depends on what you want, whether you want your first and second split and you know how how you're arranging your strings and your and your uh you know, your percussion and your brass, where they're gonna be. So you have the tympanist at the back in the middle, do you put them to the side? You know, what it's interesting because we can mix up, we can mix up our voices and create different sounds. And I um I went through a very long period, only until recently did I change it, of having my first and seconds on the ends, sopranos. Uh, and then I would have my autos uh in the middle, in fact, and I'd have the basses on one side of them and the tenors on the other side of them. And I found that really good because it was like, you know, you had this almost stereo separation when you're split into four part, six part, eight part. Um traditionally, choirs when they're rehearsing, I think SATB is the format. I think when I was singing in my uh in my years ago, my day, when I was singing with the London Philharmonic, uh, we would always be in SATB. Uh and that became the norm. But it's really interesting when you try and and change things around, you know, have all the tenors and basses at the back in one line, or bring the tenors and the basses in the middle behind, you know, one in front of the other. Um, have you do you ever do you ever perform where you are completely mixed up, or do you prefer having sections?

SPEAKER_00 17:28

No, I think I think mixing up when everyone's really on the ball and knows what they're doing. I think there's two things about it. If if people are standing next to a part they're not used to all the time, I think it makes them listen in a different way, perhaps a bit more intently, particularly when they know things very well. You know, there's those times where you do the same concert maybe twice in two different venues. Um, I think you can afford to do that when you've perhaps performed it once and then try it in a slightly different setup. And I think sometimes when you've got problems with tuning and those sorts of things, actually moving people around can be really helpful from that point of view. I think, as I said, the listening uh becomes a bit more keen. Um, I think the watching becomes a bit more keen. There's no doubt in my mind that men hiding at the back that have been there for 40 years sing at the back of a chorusati just get on with it and do their thing. But I'm I'm whilst I like to be really collaborative, I'm a bit of a control freak about certain things and watching, particularly I I'm I'm just uh such a kind of uh a fan of really beautiful feminine endings of things and and and shape and and holding uh holding up you know dissonance and things. I just I just love dirty music really. Um uh whatever it might be, and it doesn't matter whether it's musical theatre or or or Renex prolifery, frankly. I'll always find something juicy. Um but they've got to see you to be able to do that. And and and equally I like to do things differently in a performance. I love surprising people. I don't like taking the risk that it's gonna go wrong. But when you know your people, you just know you can do something and surprise them and you think, oh, we've just had a moment. And like the people behind, even if they're not there, have no clue. They think this was meticulously planned, you know, this extra, extra thing you did. And I think if people are watching you and they're on you, you've got more chance of um of owning that space, I think, with them and sharing that energy.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

What's lovely about talking with you is is you are a true a true musician and you have you've gone through the choral um education, studying, and doing it, and actually doing it from a young age, and now you're out the other side teaching others and conducting as well as singing. So you really understand, and I I think I think this has been one of the things that I've felt is is beneficial in my work too, is being a trained singer, then becoming a choir director. You know what it's like from the other side, you know how the singer feels. How important is now the two questions here really, but you talk a lot about gestures and you talk about watching the conductor and how important those gestures are. Talk me through through that a little bit. Why is that so important?

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Well, so fundamentally, I think that I'm and I'm thinking, I'm not thinking, you know, when you're working with professional choirs and they turn up on the day and and you've just got your one rehearsal. That's that's about kind of forming

Gesture That Truly Adds Value

SPEAKER_00 20:05

a result on that day. But I think when you're working with people longer term, and it's it doesn't matter whether it's eight-year-old children or sixty-year-old, you know, core societies or whatever it might be. I think your job there on the day when it comes to actually conducting and actually using that part of the craft, or if you're lucky enough to have some rehearsals beforehand with an accompanist, I think the the job there is to add value. And I think if you're not adding value, then there's not really any point in you being there. You know, you could pick up a choral class, I don't know, a good choir, give them Loca Siste by Bruckner, right? And give them a downbeat and off they'll go, and they'll sing it the sort of way they've always sung it, and you could be on the way home. Uh, and it'll be fine. And you could probably record it on YouTube, and if they're a good bunch, it'd probably be fine, probably all right. They might even be better, and that's where it gets interesting is when you realize that what you're doing isn't adding value. So um I will frequently you know drop my arms, and I and I love conducting, I love the shape of it, I love the alchemy of it, I love the energy that's happening. But you have to be honest with yourself sometimes and think, am I doing anything? Um I mean, I'm gesturing in with some way, you know, and I think, oh, this is I'm making that sound. I think actually it was me saying something eight weeks ago that did that. I said a thing, and they now will sing it that way, and that's what's doing that. Right now, how do we bring that alive? Or do I need to be doing anything there, or is it enough to just do a look? And I think sometimes, you know, you can sort of drop the arms and get those out of the equation and just use. I don't know if I'm sure people have seen those lovely videos of Bernstein conducting with his eyebrows, you know. Um, I mean he's great because so musical always. Um, and I think I think that's a really interesting one, you know. Uh we don't all have hugely expressive faces, but but I think just showing what you know I'm I'm big, I mean I'm six foot three and sort of you know really broad, and and and you know, I can sort of fill a space, so but I can also become really small whilst that's happening. And and I think having those those that opportunity is really important. So I think that that question of am I doing anything, am I adding value is really important. And then when you know. You are that's when I think you can take the risks and maybe add slightly more or do something um more with it. Um, so yeah, so that's really important to me is the gesture doing anything. And I think actually it's interesting, is it? Because in a lot of concerts, people are watching the conductor even from the back. Uh, and I spend a lot of time thinking, well, did that do anything? Oh, I might try that. And I think it's really good because we're always learning, right? I want to try. I've never tried doing that. I'm gonna try doing that. And you try it and you think, oh, I don't know what that is. Or perhaps it's just a him and or her and them thing. Um, and so that's quite interesting to me. But um, but I think, yeah, just just really important. And we have enough time in that playfulness in our rehearsals to try stuff, right? Um, you know, what what works, what doesn't work. Um, I think too often, I think two things happen. People either, when they're starting to conduct, often people I think that aren't aren't as lucky as me going through the pathway, uh, whatever it might be, um, sort of start conducting by looking at beat patterns. Oh my word. I mean, I uh I mean it's very clever conducting six, eight, isn't it? In eight different versions or whatever. Or I can do five, seven in this, five, eight in this hand, six, eight in this hand. Lovely. Uh it's fine if you're doing some random Schoenberg or Stravinsky. Um you're probably not doing that, Corey, frankly. Um, and uh I just think you you're obsessed by the beat pattern, and particularly with amateur singers, they want a strong downbeat. And after that, everything's fair game. Yeah, ideally give them a good upbeat as well. You can get both of those things, and even really good readers, that's what they want, you know. I think the times I sung in cathedral choirs and you're reading, reading, reading, or with professional groups, I just need a strong downbeat and I need to know where you know where the end of the bar is, and I need that in my periphery so I can read. Um, and anything else is interesting, you know. This is the the magic is not in the beat pattern. The magic's in the other hand, I think, you know, often. Um and so I've become slightly obsessed with that in a way that I wasn't when I was younger, I think. Um, but what I've realized, I think I've realized is that the people I've enjoyed working for most, I've enjoyed their clarity. And their clarity is normally simplicity. Um, because actually, let's go back to a lock assist thing. If you just shape that in a in a clean four and show the breaths, you've won. And then anything else you want to add and try, that's where you know, expanding some phrases or or making everyone breathe silently within those long rests, or not counting four, but just you know, whatever, um, I think is really exciting. And I think part of that is it within that playfulness is keeping it exciting for you, um, but also being honest with ourselves about, you know, am I am I doing anything? It's probably true in everything we do in life, frankly. Am I making a difference? You know, is the thing I'm cooking better than the microwave meal? Well, actually, perhaps I ought to have my cooking game. Um, you know, it's uh it's a perfectly good microwave meal. It's nutritionally complete and it took two and a half minutes. Um, okay, I'm gonna cook something that's a bit more interesting, or I'm gonna put it on a triangular plate or on a slate or whatever they do in restaurants. Uh, I just think that that that's our kind of thing, really, is to sort of play with stuff and and and be creative.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

And you're making it sound very exciting, which I think which I think it is. I I think choir conducting is very exciting. And I don't know. It's really exciting. It is, and I I don't care what piece it is, I don't care what genre it is. I think you can always find something interesting about the music. So it frustrates me, I think, a little bit. Uh, and there is a place for everything. I'm gonna say that as a disclaimer before I say what I'm gonna say. One of the things that frustrates me is when I watch a choir, particularly a pop choir, with a perhaps less experienced musical director, they tend to dance with the choir. And I don't feel they're offering anything else other than being the choir leader, the choir, the person standing in front of them that is doing the exact same thing as the choir is doing. Now, uh my advice to them is always do something that's gonna inspire

Performance Traps And Distracting Leaders

SPEAKER_01 25:39

them or make them do something different. Once they know the move, you know, if you want to have a choir that's gonna move, that's great. A place for everything, indeed. Uh, we've all d we all do it from time to time. We put the claps in, the clicks in, the shakes, you know, whatever we're gonna do, that's great. And I'm I'm all in favour of of that in the right, in the right situation. But if you're just going to do exactly what the choir are going to do, what is your purpose?

SPEAKER_00 26:04

Sure. I completely agree. That rings so true. Um, and uh and it can be completely distracting for everyone. I have no doubt there's sometimes distracting for the singers. Uh there's you know, there's the the one thing worse than singers not not uh performing to their audience is them just performing to their musical director. You should be doing enough that doesn't need to be this because then you'll just you it's a it's them and us, isn't it? You know, you may as well not have an audience if it's just you can get away with it if you're recording for YouTube or something. You can have some magical things. I mean, you don't have to watch, oh, it's this amazing Duraflay Requiem with Stephen Leighton and uh and Trinity Cambridge, and it's they do it from memory, and it's him and them in this church in France, it's just to die for. But you wouldn't want to be sitting in the audience there uh in terms of their performance because it's them, you know. Um it's made for TV, I suppose, is the thing. But yeah, I completely agree with that. And it it does seem to be a bit of a symptom of of some more contemporary choirs that that's that's a thing. I I think the place where that doesn't happen, and sometimes you see some real masters, is in in kind of uh gospel choirs, where there's there's there always seems to be just a bit more magic in the musicality there. And I don't know if that's spiritual, it's about connection, perhaps, in many of those cases. I can imagine it will be. Um, certainly how I connect with bigger things is through music for sure, and I know there's a real connection for the people that that are passionate about that. Um, but there's a sort of, you know, I think that's proof that it doesn't have to be just the showman at the front, kind of showing off their back for the audience, which it sometimes feels like.

SPEAKER_01 27:28

It does, and and you you know, I I don't think there's anything worse than watching a choir leader, uh, and the only thing you're watching them doing is to shake their backside. Yeah, you know, we don't we don't need to see that. You know, you why don't they go and sing with the choir? I'm sure they could they could offer a lot. But we've got you know, that's why we have to inspire them. We have to keep them going, but we've got to do something else to bring out this this sense of performance. I always I've always conducted choirs. Um this might sound may sound a little bit bizarre, but to me it doesn't. But I conduct a choir almost like they're an orchestra. Um, I've conducted orchestras a lot as well, and I continue to do so. It's something I'm hugely passionate about doing. But you've got sections of your choir, and each choir member is making a different sound, a little bit like each instrument in the orchestra. So exactly.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

Yeah, indeed. Yeah, it reminds me a bit like an organ, you know, where you can pull out another stop. And I find it's interesting you say that. I've noticed myself doing this, and like I said, I don't I do spend time with orchestras, but when they're accompanying choirs on the whole, and I'm lucky I did some orchestral work before. But I use those orchestra analogies more and more and more. You know, if you want someone to sing like strings, or sing like a synth, even not even orchestra, or you know, to sing like like lower winds, you know, in the men or whatever, trombones. I'm always asking the men to sound like trombones at the bottom end, whatever the genre. Um, and I and suddenly you get this sort of connection. And I think that's that's a really exciting thing where it's not we're not always going for this homophony that's like you know, the kind of Whitaker-esque thing, where it's just it may as well be a synth sometimes when you get it right. That's it's perfection, right? You know, but it's um but it may as well be a synth, or we may as well listen to Spotify. Um, I I I'm really interested in that whole thing of how can we create our colour and do something interesting. And not just that, not just the global thing about oh, we want the tendons to sound like this, but Steve, I know you've got a particular, you know, when you sing a top F across your break and it's suddenly, I want that. Dirty Steve, let's go, you know, whatever it might be. Um, I think that's a really exciting way of doing it. And but but you can only do that, can't you, when you know it intimately. You have to read the score in that way, you've got to be know it backwards, really. You have to have sung all those parts and have them built into you. And I suppose with lots of trans repertoire, uh, if you grew up, you know, through being a boy and then an alto and then a tenor and a

Colour Like An Orchestra And Frisson

SPEAKER_00 29:40

bass, you probably sung most of those parts, you know. Every time you visit Messiah or something, you know all these parts, um, or whatever it might be, uh, you know, or things you've done with lots of choirs over long periods of time. Uh every bit of Christmas repertoire that exists, for example, you just know all of the parts and can play them. But that intimacy, and intimacy is such a great word when we're making music together, isn't it? Particularly with groups that we like. I think that level of intimacy allows you to be more creative, um, to take those risks. And do you know it always comes down to me? Um, I love how you say you you treat them like an orchestra. For me, it's about that and making the audience feel something. I I so want people to feel what I feel. And um, I mean Frisson is in is fascinating to me. I get the chills all the time. I don't care if it's Dear Evan Hansen or Mozart, I don't care. Uh, I can I know the bits, I can, you know, my playlist is just ridiculous. I think I get this, and it really frustrates me when other people don't, and I become obsessed about trying to make everyone feel that. Um frustrating when they don't. Oh, I might just say and I'm or sometimes I literally get stopped by it, you know, and I just and you get that show, and you're and I look up and think, hold on, why are you not feeling this? Is this this is just me, or the couple of people you know that always get it. Um, and then if someone in the audience, musical or not, comes to you and says, Oh, you know, that moment to just at the end of that, oh, I don't know what that second piece was, and you tell them, okay, okay, all right, you got it, brilliant. Okay, so we've we've we've we've converted one, someone felt something. Um, because singers are feeling it, right? We're doing it, we're feeling it's physically part of us when we're singing. The least we can do is try and get the audience to feel it as well. But I do think you have to dig around a bit to get to that stage rather than just think we're doing a concert on June 24th.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

It's funny how we can we have to try and make people feel something, which is very tricky because it's something that's all very subjective. Every piece you do, you know, some people like a certain genre, some people like different music. You know, in in some of my choirs, I I do a range of different styles of music. One minute I could be can, you know, doing some musical theater next bit, I could do a bit of you know, Eric Whitaker and a bit of pop music. I mean, it could be anything. You know, trying to get people to like what you like is very tricky. And you are picking rep, generally speaking, unless you're asked to do something. You're picking rep you like and you think will work for your choir. Sure. I I I think that it's um it's tricky. It's it's really tricky to get people to feel something. I remember doing uh a few years ago, it was just around pandemic time. I remember uh giving the choir some Sondheim for the first time. I'm a huge Sondime fan, love Somtime music. I thought, right, we'll give we'll give we'll give them some music. You know, we'll give them Sunday from Sunday in the Part with George, we'll give them uh a little medley of Suntime music. And I played it and they just went, ugh. It was this moment of just lull. No one was excited, and I was like, What's the matter with you? This is like some of the greatest music ever written. What's the matter with you? But do you know over the course of those few months, those pieces got under their skin and it became now, even now, some of their most favorite treasured pieces that we've ever worked on. How do we how do we do that? How do we make that happen quicker for people? How do we get it?

SPEAKER_00 32:47

For us singers, it's it's a challenge, isn't it? I think I think uh as you develop that level of intimacy, that knowing them, that knowing what they like and what you know kind of flicks their switches, I suppose, uh uh, in addition to the audience, and you hope that they're that they're related. Um, I think it's maintaining your passion for it. And you know, it's that sort of thing. You I promise, I promise, if you stick with this, you'll love it. And I don't think I've ever got to the point where someone at the end has gone, nah. I think most people go, okay, I can

Winning Buy In For Unfamiliar Music

SPEAKER_00 33:12

see why you like it at least. If you can get to that point, I get why you love it, you know. And I think sometimes with those things, you know, I'll try anything. I I've got, you know, there's some cliches about me. My singers will tell you. They'll tell you I don't like Bach famously. Um, I'm not that keen on much stuff written before 1950. Uh, and uh, and so it goes on. And and and yeah, I love polyphony. I mean, I don't love Bach, I'm gonna I'm gonna be honest. I don't know why, I have no idea. You know, I'd rather I'd rather have stainless crucifixion than St. John Passion. Now, you know, you can quote me on that. Um uh uh uh because I think there's something more you can do with it, but that's just me. Um and I I think getting the buy-in just has to come from that enthusiasm, you know.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

Sorry, I have to interrupt you. Hang on a second. You can't stop there after making that massive statement. It's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

Also, I'm not afraid to say it, Russell. I'm not afraid to say it, and I think that's really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

And that is interesting, and that is great. And it's funny, is I didn't really connect with Bach. I heard I remember hearing my first St. John Passion uh and thinking thinking it was the most longest piece I've ever heard in my life. And why does it all sound the same all the way through? I was very young at the time uh until I sang Bach. And then I sang, I went on tour and I sang the St. Matthew Passion uh with the English concert under Trevor Pinnock, and it was him that inspired me so much that I fell in love with the St. Matthew Passion, and to this day it gives me the chills as soon as I hear the opening. That's interesting, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 34:35

You see, you see, sometimes I sort of dig into this and people ask me, uh, you've got some past trauma associated with this musical, you know. And I thought, well, yeah, we did do some bits when I was at school, and I was lucky, you know. I went to a normal state school, uh, you know, so although I ended up doing chorus scholar and all that stuff, I went to a normal state school here in Kent. And um, but I was lucky because of one guy, a guy called Adrian Boynton, uh, who's uh still uh near retirement, but uh master of music at the um Church of Christ's Cornerstone in Milton Keynes, great guy, and he was uh bonkers about just getting us doing stuff, and I was in his church choir and also the school choir. And you know, he thought nothing of dragging a bunch of nine, ten-year-olds off to Yorkminster or St. Paul's or whatever else, and we would do even so and it was and that was the awe and wonder bit, right? Going into these amazing buildings and being allowed to own them uh vocally and sing the great repertoire of whatever. Um and we did, you know, all of that stuff. We did Bach and we did very quickly, we did all the all of the things that back then we could have done. So I haven't got any former trauma about it. People have been telling me my whole life I'll get it one day. I consider myself a fairly bright being. Uh, some some people I really respect, some of the guys that I used to see at Canterbury who, you know, really great musicians would sort of tease me about this. You know, I love Rutter. I mean, I I push towards the cheesier side of stuff, if you want to call it that. Um, partly because it makes me feel more in my experience, not so much necessarily the singers, but the my mom. I take my mum as a as a point of reference, right? So my mum is non-musical, um, you know, totally working class dovergirl, florist, whatever, uh, you know, led a great life with my dad, but um uh non-culturally aware, really, in the way that I've been fortunate to be exposed to. And so you're dragging her to concerts if you're doing something really, you know. But uh, she'd much rather listen to Rutter than Bach, right? Uh so there's an interesting thing about audience, and I know people love it, and I can't justify it, but I've for years I've been happy to say, and I can give you the reasons, um, which I think are perhaps interesting. I don't enjoy singing it. Now, perhaps that's my technique, and so many quavers are not my thing. Uh, that's fine. Uh perhaps um it's because as a young tenor, it's a stretch, isn't it? You know, it's hard, hard work um when you're finding your voice. Um, and I've I'm not connected to it in uh in the way it just doesn't wear it on its sleeve for me. Now I know people feel they do, and I totally respect that. I respect anyone's view about music, you know. Uh it what isn't free will an amazing thing? You can do what you like and you can think what you like, and I think being bold enough to say so is good. Um, and I have, you know, I I have done some of those works and conducted them, and I will put my all into it, but I still struggle to find it with some of those things, which perhaps helps to answer your question is how do you sell? How do you sell to your uh your your people that that aren't into those things? And I that's an interesting one. I don't know. I turned 50 this year, perhaps when I'm 60 I'll I'll learn. And uh have it.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

But you said you didn't you don't like anything pre-1950, I'm sure I know.

SPEAKER_00 37:19

No, that's the cliché joke. That's the point. That's the thing because you know, I'm a kind of I'm a kind of Finsey, Vaughan Williams-y sort of housey sort of man, you know.

SPEAKER_01 37:27

I do you like the pastoral music? You like you like the more. Yeah, yeah, indeed.

SPEAKER_00 37:31

But but I love you know, I love French, you know, Duraflay and Co. as well. And I love it.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

It's all very similar, I think. I think that's all. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

It's got those elements, but but I think it also tells I think a lot of that stuff tells you how to feel. I think a lot of that stuff tells you how to feel. I for me, much as I like polyphony because I like the mental part of it, I suppose, the challenge of it. Um, I it doesn't, to me, it doesn't tell me how to feel, and perhaps I'm just simple and I need to be told how to feel, and perhaps that helps me when I'm trying to sell to singers or an audience. Um, but but I think and a musical theatre tells me how to feel, it tells me in words and in action and gesture, and I love it, and pop music likewise. Um, but I, you know, and I'll uh I find things like even if you look at other genres, things like classical opera or Baroque opera I love. You know, give me some Purcell or give me some Mozart, but don't don't bring any of that like Verdi and Pacini stuff near me. I'm not a big fan. Um that's too much of a gesture for me. I feel like rather than being told how to feel, I'm being made how to feel when it's that big. So I I'm I'm I'm I'm a complex creature, Russell. That's all I can say. Um and I and I know what I like. But um, yeah, I will, you know, give me Gorantius or uh Verdi Requiem anytime, and I will I will love it and show you it all the way through.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

But surely Verdi Requiem is Verdi's greatest opera.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

Disgust. There we go. Oh, we are.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

Um do you know I could talk I could talk about this for hours and hours and hours because I love talking. It is fascinating, and I love talking about the technicalities of music. Um and in fact, I did uh I had an interview um recently, and it will uh it'll be aired shortly, uh, with uh an amazing uh choir director called Maria Redison, she's based in the US, based in um St. Louis, and um we were talking about how music uh you can hear classical music, you can hear the greatest classics in today's pop music. And she uh she has her own podcast talking about that. There's there's so much you can get from classical music in today's music. So, what what is it about do you I mean do you think do you think that classical music uh is more technically appealing than contemporary music?

SPEAKER_00 39:40

I think that's a really that's a really interesting question, isn't it? And I think that I think that answer might have changed in my head over the past 25-30 years. Um going back, I don't even remember, there's a thing called Classic FM TV. About 25 years ago, they basically put like video tracks under, you know, um uh I don't know, uh uh Pavampon and Fanta de Funta, you know, or something like that. And it'd be some Italians going down the street with a coffin or something. And and uh, you know, all of these sorts of things, and it was uh all of those early days of G4 and those sorts of groups or whoever they

Classical And Contemporary Lines Blur

SPEAKER_00 40:11

were, you know, doing those things. Um uh and it was kind of what we used to be called crossover music. I mean, it's just that no one calls it that anymore, right? So so as we've evolved through, I suppose, Carl Jenkins and Co. Again, big fan, not everyone's cup of tea, I know, but you know, look at Classic Evelyn Hall of Fame, that's what normal people listen to, and you'll find the Benedictus at the top, right? From the armor. Um, love all that stuff. Um uh as you look at what people, I suppose, appeals to people, I think the crossover was a thing, but now it's become like I think it's quite hard to find the line sometimes, you know. When you look at, I suppose, Whitakers and Melors and Loridson's and all of those people, then all these names we're seeing now, and lots of female composers in the choral space as well. Um, and then and then groups like I suppose Votches 8 doing sort of crossovery sort of things and pentatonics and and all of those. And I I that we we owe a lot to our friends uh in the States in terms of close harmony sort of works and vocative and those, you know, where we can take there's that amazing mashup that vocative do of um Bells of Notre Dame and Carol of the Bells. It's just oh my god, and then you hear them sing, oh holy nine, it's just stratospheric. Um and I and I think the lines are becoming blurred. So I think but I don't think I think an interesting thing is that musicians, and I suppose I mean those of us that have spent our lives doing it, um, have not necessarily evolved at the same rate, which I think is an interesting thing, and it's still a bit them and us, it's like bark or rutter. Uh now I know it's an extreme, and I'm I'm I'm being slightly provocative because that's part of my uh uh personality, I think. Um, but um I think that it it it can be anything these days, can't it? You know. Um I I went to see a choir the other day, Brighton Consort, fantastic guy called Greg Skidmore, um, conducts them, and my uh my eldest son sings with them, and it was all Monte Verdi. Now, you will have worked out that that's not my cup of tea. But those people loved it, and Greg clearly loves it. And James, who wouldn't normally buy into that, he was a cathedral chorister and is formed in my own image a bit, so bring him out some Whitaker, um, uh, has loved that process of working with that, and yet they're trying to present it in a more interesting way, you know. So um it was sold to us in a different way. Greg spoke, you know, through the thing and gave us a narrative, and it wasn't just sacred, and we had madrigalia, we had Italian, we had, and and and you can see where that's going. And then the next thing is going to be looking um, you know, at other repertoire from that time. So I think it's okay to have this kind of single genre thing that you do or single period, but equally it's okay to have this kind of mixed bag, you know. I love the mixed bag thing in concerts. I mean, you said yourself you have these kind of mix of things. And I know when I uh used to sing for those that know how kind of even song works, you know, even song music, I know lots of our uh people listening to this will know exactly what that is, you know, your canticles and your anthem and your responses. And I always remember David Flood, who was uh Master of Chorus at Canterbury for many years, a great friend uh retired some years ago, um uh uh talking uh on a BBC thing once. Someone asked himself, well, why have you got uh, you know, the sort of renaissance music in the canticles and then a modern anthem? And David would say, Well, it's a it's a mixed diet, right? You don't know who your audience is, audience in church, you know, coming in. It's a mixed diet, something for everyone. And I think the idea of something for everyone is quite exciting, actually. I find I gravitate towards programs these days that uh we're boast of 400 years of choral music or 500 years of chorus. Well, you start with summarizer coming in, and you can call that 13th century. And then you're going right up to a bit of um Jason Raz, you know, that lovely king singer's arrangement of uh of I'm yours, or something like that. And I think if you can cover that in a program, there is something for it. What's not to love? Someone's got to like something along the way, right?

SPEAKER_01 43:31

And you've got the classics. It's about being open-minded as well, isn't it? And and I know we all, you know, we all have our favourites and we all have the dislikes. I I've always struggled actually with Monteverdi too. I I don't know what it is, I don't know why. It's the most incredible music. I just can't relate to it.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

I see the value totally. I to and I appreciate it. Like, you know, and I and I and the truth is most of that stuff I love singing it or listening to it.

SPEAKER_01 43:54

I may have just lost some listeners by saying that. Um but uh so I'm just saying everything is subjective. And I'll tell you, and I'm very you know very open about these things as well. I mean, I I've always struggled. My biggest struggle in all music I've ever sung in my life has been with Bird, William Bird. Okay, interesting. I just could never get it. I couldn't, I just people would talk to me as if I'm completely insane. You're a musician and you don't like it. You know, what's wrong with William Bird? I just couldn't get it. When I was sight reading it, nothing made sense to me.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

Yeah, um I didn't care actually.

SPEAKER_01 44:29

I don't understand why either. You know, there must be something going on in my head intellectually that um that it just doesn't work, it doesn't come together, it doesn't sound obvious. Yeah, um, yeah. I could sing uh I remember singing um uh some schnitker once, and I remember singing uh Schumberg. You know, you sing Schumberg, different colours, and and I but I I kind of understood it. I I could understand the music I was singing, and therefore, whether I liked it or not, you know, I remember singing uh Survivor in Warsaw. Uh and uh I I just thought I looked at it and thought this is just like pulling notes out of thin air. But I still remember it to this day. I could probably I could probably sing some of it because it's somehow I've managed to connect with it intellectually somehow. And it might not be the music you love right now, but you can understand it and it is subjective.

SPEAKER_00 45:24

Isn't that interesting, uh being a musician though, especially as a choral director or conductor of any sort, actually, how we inherently, I think, listen to music or see music, and I mean that in the in the oral sense as well, vertically, because you're reading the pile, right? But but we're constantly trying to get our singers to see everything horizontally because you want the line. Uh and I find it when I listen to new music, the curse of listening vertically, and you miss the you miss the joy, right? Uh because and even if you look at a score, you're reading it that way, not that way. It's really hard to see those things. And for me, I had a similar thing, I think, um, until I was completely submerged for singing up 17 years in Cathedral in kind of Renaissance um English stuff, particularly, that I was just seeing it still in this vertical sense, and I hadn't had the time to sort of see it in that horizontal way.

SPEAKER_01 46:08

Can you explain that for our listeners what that actually means? Because some people might not understand what that means.

SPEAKER_00 46:12

I suppose as when you're as a as a choral conductor or as any sort of conductor, you you're you're looking at the music top to bottom on a page because you've got to be aware, you're multitasking, aren't you? You've got to be aware of what's going on. And the kind of lines are in your periphery. So what's to come, the next bars, you can see them, it's like where's the page turn? Um, and you're aware of what everyone's doing. So I th I think you end up doing that. And you know, I think this is a curse of of uh for singers as well as they get better at reading, that

Reading Vertical Versus Singing The Line

SPEAKER_00 46:39

they read things um in a very vertical way, and that and the worst still they start reading syllables. You know, really good amateur choirs and children sing in English, right? When there's English words, they would never sing salve shon, you know, or angel. Children don't go, angels, what can they hold angels sing? Even good singers that have known that since they were eight suddenly start singing gels instead of angel. Um, and I'm I there's another one of my obsessions is about singing things that you say, which I think I got from Barry Rose um when I was very young. I was doing songs of praise and he was conducting it in Dover. And he said, Can you just sing in English? I'm like, be that my vision, what's going on? Um, and um and I I've become obsessed with that as I've gone through time because I think finding the horizontal line is a joy. Going back to the orchestral thing, right? An orchestral musician that isn't relying on text is not reading vertically, they're reading across the line. Where's what where's my hand position going next? Where's my breathing going next? Where's the phrase? And so often when we're singing, particularly when we get better, and I think conductors have the same um uh uh kind of problem for what is uh for want of a better description, you end up singing very vertically. Um, and and so I think that can kind of get in the way of forming these beautiful lines. And it makes things like polyphony really hard, you know, that's sort of juggling what's going on until you can do things. That's where I think sometimes going back to our previous point about mixing up your choirs can get really exciting. Singing polyphony with no one next to you doing your part is challenging and exciting. You see, oh that's interesting. What's coming in here? What's going out there? You know, one ear it's in one ear out the other, and you get this kind of completely different experience depending on who's around you.

SPEAKER_01 48:12

Um, so that's yeah, I find that I find that a really fascinating part of what's extraordinary in all of this is this this all this amazing talk about about the technicalities of reading and singing music, um, and talking about these great composers. And you're working on a production of Bugsy Malone right now.

SPEAKER_00 48:31

Absolutely, yeah. We did six at Christmas and Matilda last summer, so we're on Bugsy Malone. Um, and uh what a great, what a great piece, you know, proper music in there. The kids are loving it. It's really interesting because it's a kind of one of those older music. I mean, it's not quite a legit musical, is it? But it's uh it's got it's got its own, well, it's its own genre really, isn't it? It's a play with songs, really. Um and the kids were like, oh, I'd want to do that. Whereas our generation, I think, just have this nostalgia of the film with Scott Beau and and Tody Foster and all that

Bugsy Malone And Final Farewell

SPEAKER_00 48:59

stuff, uh which is pretty rubbish actually when you go back to it. Um watch it in through today's optics. Um but it's it's it's a classic, isn't it? And um but you know, they love it, and uh and and there's so much of a chance to teach through that music because they're simple standalone songs, you know, here's some basic primary chord harmony with a bit of jazz thrown in for the jazz age and the speakeasy. Um and it's just another opportunity to have some fun, isn't it? That's what we're doing.

SPEAKER_01 49:23

It's funny, it's one one of the first musicals I ever saw on stage in London. I was at I was at theatre school at the time, and I remember going to see it. Um, I think it was at Her Majesty's Theatre, I think, on uh Haymarket. And I I just remember all the pie fights and everything. Uh yeah, are you gonna be using uh you're gonna be using real pie fights? Real pies?

SPEAKER_00 49:39

We've got the we've got the whole thing. We've got the pies, we've got the splurge guns, we've got the big car, we've got the yeah, it's all there, flapper girls, oh, how much fun.

SPEAKER_01 49:46

Uh Peter, it's been so amazing talking with you today. I'm so glad you got in contact, and it's just great hearing about all the amazing work you're doing and and just all this real musician stuff. Uh, it's fantastic. I could literally spend hours talking to you, but uh, and I'm sure we'll we'll talk again and um be great to hear more about what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 50:04

Yes, thank you. I've had great fun. It's great to uh great to be here and uh and thank you for the time of having me on.

SPEAKER_01 50:11

Thank you so much for listening to the Choir Director Podcast. It's been wonderful having you here today. And if you found today's conversation valuable, please take a moment to leave us a rating and review. It genuinely helps us reach more choir directors and grow this community together. And don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if you know a fellow director who'd benefit from today's conversation or any of the amazing guests we've had on the show, please share it with them. It means the world to us and it could make a huge difference to them. To stay connected between episodes so you never miss a thing and receive exclusive content, do join our mailing list. Link is in the show notes. And if you have a question about today's topic or any of the topics that we're covering, perhaps a question to our guest, or something you'd love us to explore on a future episode, you can email the studio or leave us a voicemail. Both links are waiting for you in the show notes. Well, thanks again for being part of the Comma Director Podcast. I'm Russell Skunt, and until next time, goodbye.