Welcome And Why The Show Matters

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Welcome to the Choir Director Podcast, the essential resource for choir directors, conductors, and vocal leaders who want to build stronger choirs, run better rehearsals, and create outstanding musical experiences. And a warm welcome back to the show with me, Russell Scott, the choir director podcast. This is episode 19, and it's so great to have you listening with us once again. We are receiving messages from choir directors all over the world, and it's really thrilling. It's fantastic to hear from so many different kinds of choir directors and hearing about all the different work you're doing and all the different opportunities you're creating. We've got some fantastic shows lined up in the weeks ahead, but we are always, always open to receiving ideas and suggestions and introductions from choir directors. No matter where you are, we'd love to hear from you. And if you've got any questions that you'd like answered, please do get in touch with the studio just by clicking the button in the show notes. You can get in touch with

Meeting Tori Longden And Her Roles

SPEAKER_00 1:01

us right here. Today on the Choir Director Podcast, I'm joined by Tori Longden, principal conductor of the Covent Garden Chorus and Associate Chorus Director of the London Philharmonic Choir. Tori has also co-founded World Choir, a global online community of more than 29,000 singers, and she coached choirs for the King's Coronation Concert here in the UK. And in this episode, we talk about how conductors really start out in their amazing journeys, how they develop and how they build a long-standing and sustainable, respected career. Welcome, Tori Longdon.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

It's great to be here. Thanks so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Well, tell me a little bit, first of all, about you. Tell me about how this all began. Our listeners always like to have a little bit of background about who are these people? What do they do? Why are they doing what they're doing? What is it that makes you love what you do so

Turning From Singer To Conductor

SPEAKER_00 1:55

much?

SPEAKER_01 1:56

So I am a choral conductor, I'm a chorus director. Um and I started my journey as many choir nerds do, singing in a youth choir. Um, and uh as I went through many years of my teens uh singing in as many places as possible and having fantastic opportunities um to sing under inspiring conductors, um, I gradually realized that I would probably be better off with my back to the audience. Um and so when I was at university, I had the opportunity to turn around, um, started conducting choirs and uh pardon the pun, but never looked back.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

And you specialized in classical music predominantly?

SPEAKER_01 2:45

Yes. So I did a master's in choral conducting at the Royal Academy of Music in London under the iconic Patrick Russell, Paddy, um, who doesn't teach there anymore. He's just handed over the reins to Nicholas Chalmers, um, but runs that that program is just the most wonderful um compost for choral directing computer.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Compost. It's a word we've not had on this show so far. I like it.

SPEAKER_01 3:15

It's good. Start as we mean to go on. It's uh choral conducting compost, um, and it puts out uh the most wonderful musicians. So it was uh it was a great honour for me to be part of that course um and to study with with other musicians in the Royal Academy.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

Do you think it's really important uh that singers do start early? And there are these wonderful youth choirs around all over the world, and obviously singing starts in the classroom. In fact, it probably starts way before it starts inside the womb. Let's face it.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

It's I was gonna say, isn't that something that Kadae said that uh music education starts six months before the birth of the mother?

SPEAKER_00 3:52

It's absolutely true. We all, you know, and I reckon all over all of our mothers, our mothers can can remember times of you know us kicking to the sound of music, or what actually in my case it was I think Fiddler on the Roof. My mum went to see in the cinema and could feel me kicking for the first time. But it does, it starts, it starts very early. But do you think it's important? It's all very well getting kids to sing in choirs in schools, which often they don't think is that cool. I think it's becoming more cool now. But going later on and outside of the school system, how

Why Youth Choirs Build Musicians

SPEAKER_00 4:26

important are youth choirs?

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Oh, they're hugely important. I I don't think just listening to the start of your question, I don't think it's necessarily game over if you want to come to singing later in life, but you weren't lucky enough to have choral singing experiences in your childhood. I don't think it's the end of uh the end of the world. Um, but that is not to take away from the enormous social good and and personal um emotional and confidence building benefits of singing when you're at those crucial developmental stages in your life. Um, I mean, singing in a choir teaches you to listen to other people, to compromise, to work together, to be disciplined, to learn, to study all of these soft benefits that I think support all other areas

Why Variety Matters More Than Genre

SPEAKER_01 5:20

of development at that stage in your life.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

And do you think do you think classical music is the st is a good starting point? Because many kids, particularly, you know, those who are on social media and looking at TikTok 24 hours a day, uh do you think that they don't see a lot of classical music? Do you think do you think the classical music is forced upon them? Do you think they they the only way they think they can get to music is by singing pop music? I mean, how how important is classical music in all of this?

SPEAKER_01 5:51

I think that a variety of music is important. And all music will become classical music if you wait long enough.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Oh, I love that. That's good.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

That was packing out the concert venues and the theatres, um, you know, for the laity, for the common man. Um, you know, and it has been um it has become canonical over time because so much of the other music has fallen away and been forgotten, and we're left with these sort of fossilized gems from past eras. Um, you know, and people go, oh, music this day in this day and age is just a pile of whatever you want to call it. Um there's just so much of it, you know, and over the next hundreds of years, 99.99999% of it will fall away, and you'll be left with some pieces which typify an era. Um, and and that's how classical music is formed, you know, it is sort of an evolutionary process. And so all music will eventually be classical music. And so I think variety is the most important thing, you know, um not just thinking about variety in terms of age of music, but in terms of provenance, nationality, genre, um, you know, and and giving young people exposure to as much variety of music as possible.

Vocal Strain And Smarter Rehearsals

SPEAKER_00 7:25

What scared you most when you started conducting? I'm interested because, you know, coming from youth choirs and singing to, as you say, turning your back on the audience is a massive step. And I know that many people would be daunted by that. How difficult was it to do that? And what inspired you to do it?

SPEAKER_01 7:50

It didn't feel like a difficult step at the time. Um, it actually felt like uh like survival in a way, because um I, although I was a very active singer when I was younger, I didn't have much good vocal tuition. And so as I fell more and more in love with the industry and I worked harder and harder, and I used my voice more and more and more, I started to suffer. And by the time I got to the end of my first year at university, I had pre-nodular hardening on my vocal folds and was starting to pathologically lose my voice. My vocal stamina was nil.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

From vocal strain.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

From vocal strain, from overuse. I don't know if you've noticed, but I'm quite an effervescent person and I tend to talk quite a lot. Um, so it wasn't just singing, it was intensive vocal use in that first year of university, coupled with a lack of mentorship and a lack of a place to turn for guidance. So I went to a speech therapist. Um, I was advised to stop singing. Um, and so one of the reasons I turned to conducting was I couldn't leave choral music behind. Um, but I could lead and I would challenge myself to um take a rehearsal without singing as much as possible. You know, it taught me to be very um, very efficient with how and what I tried to say in rehearsals and how much I demonstrated. Um and so that restriction, you know, that um unfortunate circumstance actually ended up opening out um a career path to me, which I actually find much more rewarding than I would find just being a singer, not just being a singer, because obviously it's a wonderful profession. But for me, I've always enjoyed building and managing projects and organizations, traveling and meeting and working with lots of different people and bringing them on as well as musicians. Um, and so yeah, out of hardship, um I I've sort of found this new way to make music and it suits me, it suits me far better. Um, and obviously after time I I learned enough about my instrument and I took enough care of my instrument that now I'm you know I'm I'm very happy with my vocal health. Um I sing as much as I need to um and enjoy it, and hopefully that will continue for decades

Vocal Health Mentoring And Good Tension

SPEAKER_01 10:32

to come.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Yeah, I think vocal vocal health is is unbelievably important. Um I you know I studied vocal health for quite a while when I was began teaching. Um, because without good vocal health, what have you got?

SPEAKER_01 10:45

You know, this is I mean you you we are unusual as a species of musician because we grow our own instruments and then we carry them with us to every late night and uh you know, on every night bus, you know, on every long haul flight, everywhere with us, you know, we eat with our instrument right next to it to to to the pipe that we eat with, you know, like we are so intertwined with the instrument that we're trying to take care of. Um that I think it's uh it is, it's it's incredibly important that that singers care for their voices. Um but uh more often than not, it it is difficult for young singers to access good quality information about exactly how they do that.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

I couldn't agree more about that one. Uh it it's it's unbelievable when you know I hear of of people that you know they come to me having had lessons somewhere or they've done some training somewhere. And, you know, you always will always try and be ethical about teaching. I think it's very important. I think it's very important to be open and transparent. Um, but equally, you know, you have to give good advice. And I suppose everybody believes they're giving good advice, but it's quite unbelievable the bad habits that are picked up from poor quality teaching. Um, and I know you mentor as well as conduct and uh chorus direct, and I I think I think that's really important. It's really important to give people great advice. It's really important for people to find themselves and to discover their instrument and really understand how their instrument works and push its boundaries to know what it can do.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

That's why I like the word mentoring rather than teaching, because teaching implies that you know the way and you're gonna tell somebody else the way.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

Whereas But there is no way, is there?

SPEAKER_01 12:45

There is no way allowing people to discover themselves. I really like the the turn of phrase that you used there. Um, because mentoring to me is very, very much a two-way street. Um, and I learn so much about this craft that I do through mentoring, um, you know, and through interacting with other musicians, because whereas you might be an expert in one field, somebody else might be an expert in another, and and you always have something to learn.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

Well, we never all know everything, and we're always learning. I mean, that's very cliched, but it but it is true. But I I I you know, when somebody walks through my door wanting some coaching, the first thing I always say to them is that there is no switch. I can't switch on and you'll suddenly be able to do everything you want to do. It doesn't work like that. It takes weeks, months, and sometimes years to achieve what you want to, if you ever will. But we're always learning, aren't we?

SPEAKER_01 13:43

I think that because you can't see the vocal instrument, people forget how physical it is. And um the other, the last, the last benefit that I had from my my vocal struggles when I was in my early 20s was that when I finished my degree, I actually went and worked in the NHS as an assistant speech therapist for about a year in the gorgeous cathedral city of Lincoln, which I would encourage anybody to visit uh if they get the chance. Um, but yes, so I actually went and worked on an acute stroke unit, and uh it gave me that nuts and bolts experience of how physical the singing apparatus, the vocal apparatus, and also the buccal laryngeal apparatus, so everything in your mouth, tongue, pharynx is, and and what role it plays in either benefiting your singing or keeping out of the way of what you're trying to do vocally.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

And tension is a big problem, isn't it? I mean, tension causes so many, so many problems in voices.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

And it's a it's a misunderstood villain as well, because if you had no tension, you'd be in a puddle on the floor.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

So where is my good tension? What do I need? How am I getting this healthy um opposition of competing forces which will have you know the desired effect uh running through the middle?

SPEAKER_00 15:18

Yeah, because you you know, you're always telling people don't tense up, keep everything relaxed, keep everything around the mouth and the jaw, everything relaxed. But they say, Well, I've been told to clinch my butter because I've been told to, you know, uh what's all these things have got to work together. You are a being, you have got to put everything together.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

Um, you know, singing a very physically demanding piece of uh opera repertoire to see that tension clearly plays a part.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

Yeah, exactly. And and uh but it's knowing where to use the tension.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

Yeah, yeah. I mean, goodness me, I'm not a vocal coach. I'm a conductor who works with singers. Um, and so for me, every opportunity I have to watch vocal experts work and to learn from them is is fantastic for me. And I'm I love nerding out about it. Um I'm fascinated by it. Um, but no, I will never claim to be um a vocal expert.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

I think that uh I think there's crossover in everything we do. Um I really do. You know, I think as I said, we're learning all the time. And I think I think there's crossover. And I think uh that there will be a lot of people listening today that uh are perhaps young, um less experienced, I wouldn't say inexperienced, but less experienced conductors that want to develop

Defining Your Own Version Of Success

SPEAKER_00 16:38

their careers further. And it not necessarily young in age, um, you know, people can start conducting at any age. But when you do start conducting, you you obviously you need a skill set. We high you know highly expertise highly expertise is the is the word we use here. You know, you know you need to know your stuff, you need to know your music. But how do people create careers from conducting? Because there are choir directors anywhere and everywhere these days. But for the people that want to create a career out of it, where do they start?

SPEAKER_01 17:14

I think the answer to that depends on the goal that you have, both personally and professionally. Not everybody wants to have a career conducting orchestras full time, which will mean that they have 48 weeks of travel out of 52 weeks and struggle to have a home life and a family. That's that's might be success for one group of people, but it most certainly won't look like success for another group of people. So I think it depends on your goal and carving out a meaningful career for yourself involves having an awareness of your goals and not borrowing goals from pop culture or somebody else or your parents.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

So I think a lot of people, I think a lot of young people look at conductors and they think, wow, I'd love to do that. You know, wouldn't it be amazing to stand up and do that? It's not as simple as that, is it?

SPEAKER_01 18:25

I wonder how many um early career professionals in any discipline, not just talking about conducting. I wonder how many earlier professionals actually interrogate their goals and use that information to make a plan. And as we all know, God abhors a plan. The plan will always change. But what you want is to, you know, you don't want to erect, you know, spend ages building a ladder and erect a ladder against a wall and climb the ladder only to realize you're looking over the wrong wall. You know, for me, a meaningful career is based on a very personal sense of what success looks like for you.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

I love that. I think that's great. You know, start start with the end goal, the first end goal. Not the end, end, end, end goal, but the first end goal. Where do I want to get to?

SPEAKER_01 19:29

Then you at least know that you're driving in a meaningful direction for you. Um recipe for avoiding midlife crisis.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

But how do they how do they get there? I mean, I I always wondered this. I'm I'm I'm asking you because you you've you've done it. You have the expertise.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

That's very kind of you. I feel like I'm still climbing my ladder.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

But we're all but I think we're all feeling that. You know, I've I've I've been in the music industry for 45 years. And since I was a kid, I've been, you know, involved in the music industry professionally. And it was only a few days ago somebody somebody said to me, Oh, you know, you've you've got everything, you've had the most amazing career. But I said it's not over because there's always the next thing and the next thing, and I I am highly ambitious, I always have been. And I set my goal on something, my vision on something, I want to get there, and I will create the path to try and get there. You don't always make it, but you you've got to have those those goals. But I I always remember looking at people, and I still do, not with any form of jealousy whatsoever. I'm not a jealous person by nature at all, but I think envy and jealous and jealousy are two different things. I envy is something you would love to aspire to. Jealous is is it has very negative connotations. So I look at some of the greatest conductors, and I always have done, and I remember at my time, even at the London Philharmonic uh choir, where where you are Associate Chorus Director, and I remember working with some of the greatest conductors ever, you know, Simon Rattle and uh Bernard Heitink, uh, and and some of just some of the most incredible conductors, and just looking at them thinking, wow, wouldn't that be amazing to do that? Not every day of my life, because I wouldn't want the 48 uh weeks away from my family, um, but to work on projects where you can bring people together, bring choruses together, bring orchestras together, bring musicians together, and create something amazing. And I've I still to this day love those opportunities. There's never an opportunity that I look at and think, well, that's just rubbish. You know, you look at what can be achieved by bringing musicians together and singers together. Do you still have those? I mean, you say you're still climbing the ladder. So I, you know, we're all climbing the ladder, I think, aren't we, in our own way?

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Yeah, yeah. Um, I'm always amazed by watching other musicians work um at all different levels. Um, because everybody has a different way. In an ideal world, certainly in a choral setting, you'll find that. We're all saying similar things when we're teaching and when we're rehearsing, but the thing that amazes me is the variety of different language that people can use to get to the same goals. Um, and it's like picking a path through a wood. Um, I always like to see which path somebody else will pick to go through the wood to get to the same destination. So I I find it interesting to watch people um from that perspective. And and yes, of course, you know, you look at the great conductors and you think, you know, I wonder how it felt to be in your first 10 years. Because of course, at that stage, they wouldn't know that they were destined to be, you know. I wonder if Leonard Bernstein realized five years into his career where he would end up. I think the answer's probably no. I don't think anybody could. Because the the trajectory is only really visible when you get to the destination and you look back with hindsight. You know, I wonder if uh I wonder how Dudemal felt when he first stepped onto the podium um, you know, in Venezuela. Um, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

But his his career, his career changed the minute he conducted at the BBC Proms. That was the turning point. I mean, and I was at that concert. You were there too.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

Yeah. It was Marlot II. And it was Marlatoo and I sang in it.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

It's uh, you know, it it's just extraordinary when you when you see these people and you see the career, you are at those moments and you can look back and say, I was there. And I thought, you know, sometimes you don't realize what's happening when you're in that moment, as you as you say.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

And I would I would say 80 to 90 percent of the time you don't realize what's happening when you're in that moment. Yeah, and this is this is um why it is hard to imbue early career professionals with the faith that they need to progress down the path because the progression you make is so incremental that you never notice it's happening, but you still have to do it because the only way to guarantee failure is by not trying.

SPEAKER_00 24:17

Oh, without question, without question. And I think I I it's it's interesting that that a lot of people that that enter this wonderful work that we're involved in, they will they will go to them to the colleges and to the conservatoires and they will study music and some will can study will study composition and some will study conducting and some will study their instrument. And when they are finished, they then think, ah, well, this is gonna be it now. What do we, you know, I'm gonna start work. But what do they do at that point?

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Me too, me too. I remember thinking, um, uh, you know, I remember how I felt the moment that I I finished my master's degree. Um, and I think it was only three or four years later that I realized that your master's degree hands you the toolbox that you need to start working. But actually learning how to use the tools is the work of a lifetime. Um, you know, and so I yeah, I thought I was cooked when I finished my master's, um, and I was by no means cooked. I only just started looking at the world.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

I think a lot of people feel that way.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

And and I think this is this is um one of the reasons that um Greg Beertzel and I have started the Forge conducting program, is that actually there is um you also lose your network when you come out of these structured uh conservatoire environments. And if you are hungry for an international career, hungry for um, you know, a career that makes a social impact as

Learning After Study With Forge

SPEAKER_01 25:48

well as a musical impact, you need to continue learning, you need to continue meeting people, getting high-quality guidance and growing an international network. Um, and you can't be living in a certain city in order to access a postgraduate institution. So there was, you know, there's there was a need for uh an organization that was online, but which sort of provided those things and kept that connection uh and that ability to learn going beyond a postgraduate um study.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Do you think that where you are based plays an important part? Because we're very fortunate here in in the UK that we have an incredibly rich and diverse choral environment to work in uh for any level of singer, whether it be somebody who sings karaoke or sings in a little pub group or a local community choir or a choral society, you know, big we can get bigger and bigger and right up to professional level singing, but we have something for everyone in this country. Not all countries have that, the richness of culture. And sometimes, depending on the country, it depends on how much money is around, the concert halls that are available, the venues, the type of music, because obviously we have we're we're we've got so much there's so much music culture. Do you think it's uh particularly when people are starting out in their career, do you think it's important where they're located? Do you think it's going to play a part as uh in terms of their success?

SPEAKER_01 27:21

Yes. Yes, I do. Um you know, and and unfortunately there there isn't a sort of equal provision of uh of choral expertise across the world, and and that is one of the things that we're trying to tackle um through Forge, but also I don't think it's the end of the world because choral music, okay, fine, we we would expound until the cows come home on the benefits of choral music. But there are all sorts of other creative disciplines across the world which will be very, very rich in certain countries which are completely absent in in our culture. Uh, and so I think that um uh yes, it will have an impact if you want to be a Western choral tradition musician. But you don't have to be one of those.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

I think people have this uh fear of failure. And I I think uh that people have this just fear that if something's not happening for them where it's happening, they need to move somewhere else to make it happen. And I think the the world is quite a small place, really, and I think it's about who you are networked with and where to create the opportunities and to find, you know, know what you do well, do it to your to the best you can, and find where you can be offering that to.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

Something else which I have uh

Networks Loneliness And Fear Of Success

SPEAKER_01 28:52

realized only relatively rent recently, only relatively recently within the last couple of years, is that um it's not just about the network, it's about um having an emotional support network that will encourage you to take risks. There's a um uh quite a trite saying that you are the result of the five people that you spend the most time with. And so, you know, if you if you want to be something or be more something or less something, look at your immediate circle. And for me, this is what a network is for me. Um, it's not just oh, I know so-and-so, who's the like musical director of what's an orchestra. It's I have a group of peers who I trust um and who I can be very honest and vulnerable with, who have my best interests at heart, and vice versa. And if I'm scared of failure, or the more insidious one, in my opinion, which is fear of success, like what is it gonna look like if this actually works out and suddenly I have an enormous volume of work to do and millions of eyeballs on me? This is also a really real fear that I don't think people talk about enough, being stuck between a fear of failure and a fear of success. Um, but I have a group of people who I can put these problems to who will just give me a little push. Just go and do it anyway. What's the worst could happen? You know, and sometimes that's what you actually need to drive results to take a step forward that otherwise you would have been too scared to do.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

Yeah, and I think it's I think it's hard not to have fear, but I think that fear can be a very positive thing too.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

Yeah, I do, I I do too. Um I think it's it's a bell curve like everything else, you know. Enough of it is motivating, um, but it can also be debilitating. And especially for musicians, um, you know, uh people whose um again, I'm speaking in very general terms, people whose output is directly tied to their self emotionally and creatively. So sports people, musicians, people who don't sell a physical product, but you know, really are their own product, um, you know, it can feel so much more personal. You know, and there's a whole uh body of sports psychology there to help sports people to cope with the pressure, the the unique pressure that this kind of work puts on you. Um I think musicians actually have quite a lot to learn from sports psychology in order to manage what is a very emotionally demanding profession.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

It is, it it is emotionally demanding, isn't it? And I and I think I think people underestimate that a lot. Um I think that choir directors and those who are leading bigger ensembles, um, I think they have a fear because they are well, it's quite lonely. It's quite a lonely, it's quite lonely being a leader of something. Um being at the top of your your ladder, which wherever that ladder is at that time. Obviously, we have more ladders, but you know, if you're if you're running an organization and and you don't have anyone to answer to and you're not responsible to anyone, well actually that's not strictly true, actually, because actually I think for some you're responsible to your membership. You know, you're responsible to your your choir members. But m few choir directors have people they can talk to about what they do.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

It's a very lonely expression.

unknown 32:46

It is.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

You're always one person in the room doing your job.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

You're surrounded by you know a multitude of other expert musicians, expert in their fields, but you know, it is a real problem to have support networks for conductors.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

It's one of the things that I've enjoyed a lot about running the festival that I run is that we have multiple workshop leaders on the same day, and they always say how much they love the experience because they get to work with other choir leaders and other workshop leaders and other experts in their field, and it doesn't happen very often because we're running our own choirs. So to work with other people, it's wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

Always a pleasure, always a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Do you do you ever sit back and think I've arrived? This is what I've always wanted to do, and I'm doing it.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

I try to think like that all the time. Um, because for me, life is all about the journey. Um I I have a direction. I have a place, I have places that I want to get to, I have things I want to build. Um my

Work Life Balance After Big Projects

SPEAKER_01 34:01

big direction is to meet lots of people, make music with lots of people in lots of different cultures over the course of my life, and to increase the number of musical opportunities that people have in the world. That's kind of, I mean, again, you're asking if I could put my entire life's work into a nutshell, it would probably be that. But that is not a pinpoint goal that you can arrive at. That is a goal which will encompass an entire year, uh, entire lifetime of working. And so I am already doing that. I am already traveling a lot, meeting a lot of people, creating musical opportunities, um, you know, learning from people, um, getting my hands dirty in this wonderful, messy, colourful musical world of ours. Um, and so yeah, in that sense, I am like, yeah, cool. Like I've I'm doing what I want to do. And my big goal is to carry on doing more of it, um, you know, and to have experiences along the way. Um I have, I I also have um I also have I I think the the further I get along my in my career, the stronger my social goals are to um to also be a good role model for other musicians in terms of work-life balance and um uh mental and emotional health. Um, because as we have literally just discussed, there are lots of issues, there's lots of work to be done uh in supporting freelance creatives to do their best work. Um and so as I'm going through my career, that is becoming a stronger and stronger goal of mine and one that I'm devoting more of my time to. Um uh, you know, but that obviously that fits alongside what I'm doing, and I just try to live my values as as as much as I can.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

So I think I think and I I'm always very transparent about my own feelings and um and how I how I like my work to run. I'm very very organized, I'm very disciplined in what I do, I've always had great ambition and uh very driven person. I think people would always describe me as very driven. But I I think one of the one of the biggest challenges that I face, if I'm gonna be very honest right now, um is adrenaline. Um because we have these big moments and they can be con they're concerts generally. They're gener generally concerts or recordings or big projects. We have these moments. These moments for me have grown over time, they've got bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger, and that's wonderful as career progresses. That's what you aim for, that's what you want to have. And I find it very difficult uh to come down after a period of big project, big adrenaline uh moments. Uh it's just like when you come off stage, you know, you and performers of all kinds will experience it. You have that big adrenaline moment, uh, all that dopamine and everything, you know, it's it's going crazy. And then yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

That's for me.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

Yeah, uh, and it just it just goes plonk. Yeah. Um, and we you've you've you've got to be able to deal with that. And I've had to learn over time how to really deal with that, whether it's planning something else or whether it's just sitting back and saying, you know, it's okay to sit back and just stop for a bit and then get ready for the next thing.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

Allowing yourself to rest as a freelance creative, that is a separate skill in itself, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 37:54

And the only way I can do that is to go away, literally to go on holiday. I I can't, I just can't switch off otherwise. I'm constantly fueled to do the next thing, the next thing, and to create something else.

SPEAKER_01 38:06

If you don't have a network of of similarly minded creatives to talk to, you can be like, oh, am I broken? Is there something wrong with me? I don't know how to manage this, and I don't know where to turn for advice as as to what to do. Um, you know, and and this in itself, you know, you can't really have a conversation over the water cooler with somebody else who's a manager in a different department. Um, you know, and it does leave um creative leaders unusually isolated.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

Yeah. I, you know, to when I've come off stage, the best thing I can do is once I've I've dealt with everything I've had to do, and the little bit of a you know, a drink and a celebration and everything else, is just to go into a really quiet hotel room.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Yeah, just lock the door. I'm obviously for for a pretty sociable person, I am such a loner in those ways. I love nothing more than dinner for one.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

I just adore it. I just adore it. And I love traveling on my own for that reason as well, because you have such a stark delineation between social time and and alone time. Um, and I yeah, I I I I find that especially uh in the last few years when I've been traveling more, um, I've really lent into that and embraced it. Um, and I I think when I was um really just when I was starting out, I always used to think I didn't really need my own personal space. And it was just that had a lack of awareness about what it was I needed. And it took time, yeah, it took time for me to to um to tune into that. Um and yeah, now I'm just a total boring loner in bed at 9 p.m.

SPEAKER_00 39:45

Well, that that happened to me as soon as I had children. I mean I can still remember them at you know, the times when when I was away on holiday, even with you know, with my family and a young family. I still remember, you know, we had to go to bed at six o'clock and turn the lights out because we had to get the babies to bed. It never recovered.

SPEAKER_01 40:03

Yeah, you suddenly realize actually there's nothing as nice as a long night's sleep. I wake up in the morning after nine hours sleep, like, oh god, I feel like a new woman.

SPEAKER_00 40:13

What's what's nine hours sleep? I can't remember that one.

SPEAKER_01 40:17

No, I I I've done, I've just come back from a trip to Austria and um and I I'm terrible for not letting myself rest.

SPEAKER_00 40:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:28

And my husband, who works a normal nine to five job, will often say to me, I was like, you did work all this weekend. I'm like, no, I didn't. I was at a festival, I was having fun. I was like, I was basically, I was, it was basically a weekend. He's like, Tori, no, you were on all weekend. And I was like, I wasn't working on Sunday. I was like, yes, you were. You left your hotel room at 10 o'clock and you didn't get home until 10 p.m. You were traveling for 12 hours. Take some time back. Oh, but I can't because I've got A and B and C's. No, take some time back. And again, this is part of what's helped me to have a good work-life balance, is that I'm surrounded by people who'll just give me a little push in the right direction when I need it. Um, but I've had to really get used to that. So I can I'm proud to say it's a little boast that I had nine hours sleep last night.

SPEAKER_00 41:16

And wow. It happens infrequently.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

It's taking me a while to give myself permission to rest like that.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

That's it, isn't it? It's permission. It's it's being allowed. It's difficult to switch off because your mind is always, you've always got music going through your mind, or you've got ideas going through your mind, or you've just come off stage and you've got that going around your head. It's very difficult to switch off.

SPEAKER_01 41:40

And we want to do more of it.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I could talk with you for hours. I hope we have so much in common, and it's been so lovely finally catching up with you and talking with you about all these amazing things and the amazing work you do. Uh, I really, really, truly hope we get to work together at some point in the future. I'm sure we will somewhere, somehow.

SPEAKER_01 41:59

So nice to talk to you, Russell.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you so much for listening to the Choir Director Podcast. It's been wonderful having you here today. And if you found today's conversation valuable, please take a moment to leave us a rating and review. It genuinely helps us reach more choir directors and grow this community together. And don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if you know a fellow director who'd benefit from today's conversation or any of the amazing guests we've had on the show, please share it with them. It means the world to us and it could make a huge difference to them. To stay connected

Final Thoughts And Listener Next Steps

SPEAKER_00 42:34

between episodes so you never miss a thing and receive exclusive content, do join our mailing list. Link is in the show notes. And if you have a question about today's topic or any of the topics that we're covering, perhaps a question to our guest, or something you'd love us to explore on a future episode, you can email the studio or leave us the voicemail. Both links are waiting for you in the show notes. Well, thanks again for being part of the Choir Director Podcast. I'm Russell Scott, and until next time, goodbye.