Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Welcome to the Choir Director Podcast, the essential resource of choir directors, conductors, and vocal leaders who want to build stronger choirs, rotate rehearsals, and create outstanding musical experiences. Welcome back to the choir director podcast with me, Russell Scott. This is episode 21, and my guest today is Dr. Gary Safeman, Professor of Music, Director of Choral Activities, and Chair of the Music Department at Trinity University in San Antonio, Texas. He's conducted at Carnegie Hall, led a live broadcast even song from Winchester Cathedral, and written seriously about the neuroscience behind what happens when singers perform together. Today we'll be talking about his brand new book, The Choir Playbook, and we'll be exploring what the science of ensemble really means for the practical day-to-day work of directing a choir. A very warm welcome, uh Gary, to the show. It's so great having you here today, all the way from San Antonio, Texas. Uh it's great to, you know, we're talking across a massive ocean right now, uh, and uh it's fantastic to have you on the show. Tell

Building A Career From Curiosity

SPEAKER_00 1:13

us a little bit about your work and what you're doing uh over in Texas.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

Yeah, so uh I'm in my 17th year, just finished uh Trinity University in San Antonio. Uh I originally grew up in the Northeast, outside of Philadelphia, lived and worked in New Jersey, New York, and Washington, D.C. And uh, like I said, I teach at a private liberal arts university here in Texas, and uh my wife is also a musician as well. And uh in addition to all that, you know, I coach uh my kids' sports teams. Uh so I kind of had my hand in a lot of different things. Uh and like I said, I I really love being down here. We just had a major thunderstorm yesterday. Uh, and then also right now our our San Antonio Spurs are right now in the playoffs, and so our whole city's kind of rooting for them right now at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

So this is a very strange question to ask. What is what is your unique selling point? What is amazing about what you do? Because you you've achieved some incredible things. You've written this amazing book, The Choir uh Playbook, which you've kindly sent across to me, which I've had a look at. And it's it's it's a fantastic book. But what makes what makes you feel like you're doing something really quite different and really quite special? You're obviously getting some fantastic results.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Well, thank you. Um, I I think a lot of it I think has to do somewhat with my background. Uh, you know, music was never something I really saw myself doing growing up. Uh came from not particularly a musical family. I joke around that. My music education was basically every other Friday with a tone-deaf nun singing uh hymns with our guitar. Uh and so it was it wasn't until high school that I really got into music. But so I I guess I'm also a gym rat, and so I have a lot of interests, and I I I do things I listen to you know podcasts on you know Neil deGrasse Tyson. So I I've always had these interests outside of music as well. And I've always kind of somewhat felt guilty the fact that I would devote time towards some of these things. And uh, you know, it only being in a liberal arts environment where I teach, where I begin to, you know, after a while start understanding, you know what, I'm not wasting my time with these things. I'm not wasting my time uh, you know, being interested in reading about like black holes or you know, just skateboarding or or or pitching, you know, all these kind of things which seem totally random. But you know, there there's if there's a way that I can kind of somehow connect these ideas to what I do uh for a living, what I'm paid to do, uh I think there's we can get insights on some of these things. And I think you most choir directors, you know, we're we're all dynamic folks in terms of we don't just sit there in our in our little hole and think about choral music 24-7. Uh maybe there's maybe sometimes there's weekends where we are totally focused on that. But in general, I think we have lots of interest and things. And and so this kind of I think for me it's it's acknowledging that and also in a way, then finding out ways that we can kind of maybe prune some of these ideas from things outside of music and put them in rehearsals because our singers are the same way, right? Our singers are, you know, my singers at the university are not all music majors by any means. And so if there's a way that I can somehow maybe connect an idea that they're doing in in something completely non-music-related in a rehearsal, that just makes it more meaningful for them. And so that's kind of this this whole philosophy that I've you know kind of been transforming uh myself through uh over the years.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Well, it's uh it's very much about that that sort of connecting, you know, connecting movement, connecting with rhythm and expression, and you know it's funny what you say. When you said about, I'm sure there are other people thinking this as well. As soon as you mentioned nuns and guitars, I'm sure everyone starts thinking about airplay in the movie. Yeah, just I had that straight into my head as soon as you said it. Anyway, moving on. Uh back to connection.

The Body As The Instrument

SPEAKER_00 4:49

Um, yeah, so you you repeatedly in the book, you're talking about connecting movement with with rhythm and expression. And do you think so? Do you think many choirs are actually physically under-engaged?

SPEAKER_01 5:01

I do. I I think that's a big thing. And you know, unlike say a clarinetist and you're having a bad day with your clarinet, you could just place it down and blame that and curse that. Uh, but our our voices are instrument, right? And so you you watch a stream quartet perform and they're just they're completely engaged with each other. They're they're they're making music, their bodies are actually starting starting to mimic each other. Uh and so as singers, you know, I think we need to be aware of you know the obvious fact that our body is an instrument, but also how we connect with each other. And it's not this mysterious aura thing. There's actually hard science behind some of this stuff as well. And for me as a conductor, when I when I started off, you know, I taught high school and before I before I went to grad school, I always felt awkward as as a conductor because I never felt there's a connection with my gesture, with what was going on in front of me. And it was this weird disconnect because you know, in other I all aspects of my life, you know, I was very involved with sports, I always felt like I was pretty kinesthetically aware, you know, I felt like I always had pretty good hand-eye coordination, but for some reason I just never connected when I was with the choir. And uh and and just felt like you know, it's it's weightlessness. And we always talk about you know how you're you should have no no tension in the body, you know, and this yoga-esque thing. But uh, geez, I mean, if there's no tension in our body, we would just be like a blob with bones, you know. There actually is tension, it's about where good tension and bad tension, and and this idea that ensemble does have weight to it, and there is a sense of inertia. And this isn't just like this like woo-woo stuff. There's actually now science is catching up to this idea that there actually is data to support some of these ideas. And then when I personally, when I finally began to understand that, you know what, it is a mind-muscle connection with with it, with with conducting with gesture. Then things very quickly began to make sense for me in you know, almost almost overnight. And so my soapbox is, you know, anyone can do if I could, you know, get comfortable with doing that, anyone can.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

And there's so there is so much muscle memory, isn't there? It's not just muscle memory and remembering the music and muscle memory and knowing what lyric comes next. There's everything part of performance, I find, relates to muscle memory. Because muscle memory makes everything feel okay, and it almost affirms to your brain that you are doing it correctly. You don't have to think about it. It just you just go straight into it. And that is muscle memory. You know, when you when you're singing and you're trying to remember your lyrics, no other word could fit that moment because the muscle memory kicks in and it feels right. Would you would you agree? Would you agree with that?

SPEAKER_01 7:37

I mean, a thousand percent. And and when it comes to ensemble music making, how that muscle memory actually transfers between singers. You know, uh, we all have a uh we don't we don't all just experience music from an oral perspective, but we also experience it from a visceral perspective. You know, if I were to hear somebody, for example, just on the top of my head, if I was hearing somebody, you know, hitting a timpany on stage, you know, even me as a non-timpany player, I can somewhat kind of empathize a little bit with what type of force or movement they used to generate that sound, right? I can kind of viscerally connect with that. Now, if I were a trained timpanist watching that, watching another timpani player playing, I could very much be able to describe that force. I could you almost sense by hearing it the type of rebound. I could sense, oh, that they're using that kind of mallet. This would affect that kind of, this would affect that sensation. And so we all have that that kinesthetic awareness, that that emotional um, you know, kind of contagion, which is actually a term that is used in psychology for that idea. And so the more that we can really you uh understand that, it's why, you know, if you're listening to a some young soprano singing on stage and she's going sharp, our larynx might tend to kind of you know lift up a little bit because we're empathetically feeling that, feeling that we know what it feels like when the larynx goes up, when it when a singer is singing with tension and sharpness, and so we actually start to feel that in our bodies ourselves, and there's science to to to uh to back that up. So

Mimicry And Emotional Contagion In Choir

SPEAKER_01 9:01

in an ensemble setting, it's the same thing where you know if you have ensemble members who are then visually connecting with each other, who are actually connecting physically, visually and physically, they will actually be more in sync with each other rhythmically than singers who aren't. And there's there's data to support that.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

I love that. I I think that's I think that's just brilliant. And I I love the idea of transferring muscle memory, you know, of just transferring that that emotion, the expression, the feeling. Because actually, I'm and I'm sure many choir directors have done this in a in a rehearsal room, is you know, have your members facing each other, trying to mimic what the other one's doing. And that that brings it together, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 9:40

Yeah, and it's so in so many levels, both from a breathing standpoint where they will actually come in and be able to come in together, but also watching each other's faces. And you know, we we know that emotions are contagious. You know, there have been so many studies on this that when people have two people have a conversation with each other, uh, we actually start to synchronize the tempo of our speech. We synchronize even the pitch levels, we synchronize our postures, you know, to enable this more efficient communication between people. And so even with getting singers to be able to sing the same vowels, you know, looking at each other. Now every phase is different, you know, you can't exactly match that and and you know, 100%. But getting that getting singers to look at each other will start to actually embody some of that mimicry that will actually enable that unification of vowel sounds, for example.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

And interestingly, I can remember years and years ago, I think it was probably my father actually, and I'm pretty sure it was. My father always said to me in life that when you meet new people, try to mimic their style of speaking because it brings you together and it makes it easier to you know relate to each other. You know, if you if you meet somebody who speaks differently, if you speak some if you if you meet somebody that is uh perhaps you look at and you think, oh, well, they're they're very posh, they're from a different class, different background, you try to mimic them. And I always I I always hung on to that. And I think there is a lot to be said about that. And I think I think it also comes down to when you are uh in sales, for example, when you're selling something, you want to try and be like the person on the receiving end so that they can relate to you and they're likely to trust you and buy from you. And we can relate that, I think, to our audiences. When we're singing and performing to our audiences, you want to sing to them, you want to sell what you're doing on stage, and for them to receive it, in order to do that, you have to understand your audience.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Yeah, and you're selling it to the choir as well, right? You know, you're you and you're selling the music to the choir, you're selling uh your understanding of you know articulation, and and you're selling all these things, and the more that you can get the and the singers themselves, you know, they're they're mimicking, they're mimicking each other and they're mimicking you, what you're doing. And it's it's highly dynamic, you know, and and most of these things are subconscious. You know, I always use the example of when you're when you're driving on the highway. Uh I just the other day, uh, you know, somebody will cut in front of you. You get a sense sometimes, this sixth sense of when somebody's about to cut in front of you, even though you can't really verbally describe why. Uh, but it what it is is it's actually your body subconsciously noticing little things. Maybe they're moving in their lane a little bit, maybe you subconsciously see their head is turning. And what your your brain is actually doing is actually it's it's preempting the fact that they're gonna cut in front of you because you're you're subconsciously getting these uh getting these sensations, it's sending the signal from your brain to your leg to be ready. So when that when that jerk is about to you do that, you're you're you're right there because it's it's not on reaction time alone. There's there's a predictability to it, and that's happening in a rehearsal, you know, a thousand times a minute that we are unaware of.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

Yeah. I I love the psychology of singing. I always have done. I mean, I'm I talk to my own students about it uh when I'm coaching them. Like we we we talk a lot because your being and how you present something, how you sing something, how you deliver something has it has repercussions. Uh it has an effect on your audience, it has an effect on the person that you're singing to, whether you're singing to someone else on stage as a soloist, or you're singing to an audience, or you're doing an audition. Everything, your own being, how you approach that environment, that performance, that room, that person has an effect. Everything you do has an effect. And you seem to kind of want to redefine ensemble as something not just musical, but sort of neurological and biological as well.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

There is, and and you know, in this book that I that I just wrote, yeah, I think again, I I bring in so many different metaphors that are outside of you know what the typical choral methodology book might be, you know. And I I bring a lot about, you know, I have one section about skateboarding, and and I talk about uh Jimmy Wilkins, who's this American professional skateboarder. His mom was actually a ballet dancer, his dad was a conductor. And when he when you hear him describing, you know, performing an Ollie, which is like a traditional you know, skateboard uh trick maneuver, he describes it verbatim like you would describe somebody conducting a piece. He talks about balance and posture and opening up the body, and and similarly, Tony Hawk, who's probably one of the most famous skateboarders, he talks about his skateboarding technique almost like he's talking about a physics uh you know um theorem. The way he he looks at you know the the angles, the angles of how he's maneuvering his ankle when they're when he's landing. And and so I think the more that you can connect with with those kinds of ideas, uh the the you know, because these things are inherent, you know, we we are physical beings, the the the more we can you know relate them to our singers and to our audiences as well.

Reducing Conductor Dependency On Stage

SPEAKER_00 14:45

Now, in in the book, you you that there's a sort of strong thread uh about reducing sort of conductor dependency and creating more sort of self-driving ensembles. And I think we've we've spoken about that on the on the show before, and and often it is brought up you know to always when you're performing as a as a as a singer to look through your choir director to the audience. Um but myself included as a choir director, I like people watching. I want them to I want them to perform behind me, but I want to know that they are watching my every move so that I can really help to interpret the music uh as an ensemble. How do how do we get choirs to think about the conductor and to think about the audience at the same time? There's this whole thing, sing through the conductor. What does it actually mean?

SPEAKER_01 15:41

I think you can have your cake and eat it too in a lot of ways. Uh I have a very funny memory when I was in seventh grade county chorus in Pennsylvania, where you know we were singing this kind of gospel arrangement uh with our honor choir director, and they made some joke that you know, no matter what happens, uh, you know, if if they kind of fall over on stage, keep singing. And I remember I was this shrimpy little kid, had no business being in the back row. I was in the back row and we're we're singing, we're going, you know, we're dancing and all that, we're singing, and I fell off the back uh riser during the performance. And I'm looking over at the folks next to me, you know, like, give me a hand, give me a hand. They're looking at me and they're all remembering what the conductor said, you know, keep going. And so they looked at me and they kind of shrugged their shoulders and said, Well, you know, we'll help you after this song. And and and I and I'll tell my singers the same thing, you know, if I stop conducting, keep singing, you know. So so what does that mean? You know, and another another moment, you know, you know, I have there's a great video of Christoph Daniani. I think he was conducting the Cleveland Orchestra or something, and he's rehearsing the orchestra, I think some Hyden Symphony, and he's conducting them, and they were never quite together rhythmically. And so he just stopped conducting and just said, okay, just do it on your own. And click like that, the first time it was perfectly together. You know, because he no longer was he putting the uh the responsibility on just himself alone, but he was putting the responsibility of the ensemble on on the rhythm, on keeping the tempo. And so I think as conductors, we tend it's it's easy for us to uh to not put enough responsibility on our singers to do things like keeping a tempo once it's established. And so it's this idea, you know, so where do you give and where do you let go of of having control as a conductor? And I think a lot of it starts with this mindset that the ensemble is its own organism, it does have its own inertia. They will actually connect with each other orally and physically as a separate unit. And I like to use the analogy that you're sort of like the person who's putting the train tracks a few meters in front of the train and the ensemble is the train. You're steering where it's going, but you're not the engine behind it. And so you need to be always a little bit ahead of it, you know, with your with your preparatory gesture, uh, but you're steering that train. And so that means that the ensemble members should be connecting, I think, with each other in performance. They should be looking out, connecting the audience, but you are obviously from a visual standpoint in between them and the audience. So they are connecting with you kind of amongst all of that going on. You're just another person that they're connecting with, as opposed to just them standing still, their arms to their side, like statues, and they're all just staring right at you for everything. Uh, because that I think from a from a visual and from an artistic standpoint, I think you lose some of what our brain is hardwired to do, which is to synchronize and to, you know, at least that mentioned that idea about having a conversation when you meet people, how you connect with them, you know, physically. I you miss some of that if everyone is just staring right at you and not noticing what's going on around you. Uh it's kind of, you know, you know, here in um we talk about in uh in the US, we talk about like basketball players. You talk about someone who has high basketball IQ, someone who's aware of what's going on around them, you know, someone who's aware that there's a person behind them they can pass the ball and they can shoot to. I think whirl singing is the same thing. It's sort of like just singers being able to uh be aware of what's going on around them, and then they're you know making music out of that.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

It's funny you mention uh about falling off the stage. I've uh I've done it as a conduct as a conductor before. Uh yeah, really bad. And somewhere on YouTube you can find it, and it was it was done on a grand scale. Thankfully, not while I was in the middle of a performance, so uh you know the choir didn't have to carry on singing without me, but I was I was talking to the audience in front of 10,000 people in an outdoor concert, and the sound the sound guys had put the microphone just a little bit too far away from me to grab, and when I went to grab it, I slipped and I went flying across the other side of the stage. Really embarrassing. The audience seemed to be very entertained by it. The the choir looked at me in complete horror when I got up. But uh, yeah, so it happens to all of us. But uh but you know, it gone, sorry, what were you gonna say?

SPEAKER_01 19:58

I was gonna say, and I think yeah, yeah, I'm picturing that. I'm gonna Google that right now and try to find that. Uh but um, but I think in terms of also from an artistic standpoint, you know, it when you put more of that on the ensemble, then it makes what you show as a conductor, it makes your gesture more meaningful, right? Because I I make the joke to my conductors, you know, if I had a a thousand hours and enough bananas, I could probably train a monkey to show a four pattern, right? But it's not about that, it's about showing the artistry. And so if you have an ensemble that's connecting with each other, that's keeping the rhythm together, and you know, I can show less, that means that when I actually show something, it hacks it means more, right? It's it's going above that static surface of just some big four four pattern, right? And I think that was, you know, yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

No, I was gonna say it's interesting. I I I'm in rehearsal, I've several times I've done this when when we're working on an a cappella piece, or even actually if we're working with uh with some tracks or whatever it might be, we might just do it a cappella. And I might I might just say, okay, I'm just gonna sit back, I fold my arms and say, off you go. And I've done this many times, and they they just look at me and like, well, how do we know when to start? What do we do? And I say, feel it. Look at each other, take a breath together, feel it, and do it. And I I think more people should do that. I more choir directors should try that in the room. It gets the choir members feeling things as a unit because they breathe together, and then they start singing and realize, huh, we can do this. You know, it's great, it's it's similar to having a leader of an orchestra, you know, if the conductor steps down and the leader has to continue, the leader leads the way, but he doesn't, he or she doesn't connect, doesn't conduct the concert. They're still playing their instrument, but you're feeling it together. And and I th I think that that there are challenges there, but I think I think it's it's an exercise that we we should all try. But

Conducting Beyond Beating Time

SPEAKER_00 21:46

do you think that conducting is just about beating? It's a loaded question, this, because I know the answer, of course. But is it just about is it just about conducting? Is it just about beating time? Or do you think there's more storytelling?

SPEAKER_01 22:00

So something that I've always kind of struggled with, you know, because you know, in our early conducting training, we always said, Oh, look like the music, you know, look like the music. What does the music look like? And and even when I when I first began teaching conducting, you know, I would say, you know, so if I were to put the the the the video on mute, would I be able to kind of guess where you are in the music by looking at the conductor? And uh and I think uh there there's something to be said about that, uh, but I think when you talk about what what does it look like to look like the music, I get I think you get uh get dangerously close to this whole mysterious aura thing that that in a way kind of can separate people from ha having the gift or not having the gift of being able to do that. And I think you get really dangerous territory when you start thinking that there's that is something that you know it's like this Jedi force that you can't be described, that only people with a certain number of you know, mini Klurians, whatever that is in Star Wars, you know, have can can be able to wield that kind of power to look like the music and influence people. And and and my whole philosophy again is it's not about that, it's about uh knowing, looking at a piece of music and knowing where the changes are, where where as a conductor you're needed in the music. You're not needed in the music if there's a very long, in my opinion, in a very long piano prel interlude or a piano prelude in the piece, if there's like this 30 measure in you know, uh beginning of a piece just with your company's playing, uh, you're your collaborative pianist. You're not needed. Maybe you can establish the tempo, but you know, for many of us, to be honest, you know, the collaborative pianist in our room is usually the most musical person in the room, anyhow. Right. And so they don't need me showing those types of things. Let acknowledge and respect their artistry to do that, and then the choir comes in, establish that, you know, and then get out of the way sometimes, you know. Keep the pattern that use the pattern as a framework, don't be stuck to the pattern, right? Obviously, you need to know the pattern, you need to know where the beats are. But once you're beyond that, you know, you're you're you're responsible for showing the dynamic changes, for showing the tempo changes, maybe showing some support for the if they're if the primes are about to to go up to a high note, and you know then not looking at them right when they're about to hit the high note because their vocal cords kind of kind of get stuck. But showing those changes, and I think when you think about that, then you're no longer thinking about that every beat is going to look the same. And that's a danger for a lot of our young conductors, is you you will learn the pattern, but then you want to, as soon as you learn the pattern, start to use it as a tool, not as a crutch.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

I think conductors need to take more risk as well. I think that many conductors will either go one way or the other. They'll either not beat at all and they'll just feel the music and they'll bob around on stage, which is I I'm not a great fan. But it but it okay, fair enough. That's if that's their thing and the choir respond, amazing. For me, I like to make sure that the choir know exactly where the beats are and exactly where they're supposed to come in, where they're coming off, and and give them structure. But I try and feel the music wherever possible. But there is that danger, isn't there, of doing it of going too far and beating every single beat. And then the feeling goes, the storytelling goes because all the choir director is doing at that point is conducting beats. And it's the same with orchestral conducting. You know, the orchestra don't need you to beat every single beat of every bar. They want interpretation, they want expression, they want feeling, they want the storytelling too, so they've got something to follow.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

Yeah, and it's it's it's a lot of it is just the size of the beat or just how subtle you're show you're going through those beats. And again, I think it's if if you kind of picture, you know, the the musical narrative as say, you know, this this landscape, say in a field, and you're pitching like you know, your conducting is sort of like the a stream that's going over it, you know, if your beat, if your four pattern is all really large, it's sort of like this flood that goes over the landscape that that completely goes over all the subtleties of the rocks and the grass and all that. But if you keep your gesture small, you know, then then you're still allowed to see the contours of that narrative, of that landscape. And so it bec it's no longer just static. I find that it's sort of like when you're learning to drive a car. Your first instinct when you're starting to skid, and we don't have to get a lot of snow here in San Antonio, but I remember driving to the last snow and ice everywhere in the northeast, is when you start to skid, your instinct is to drive, is to steer in the opposite direction. And when in fact you should be steering in the direction of the skid. And and with conducting, it's you know, our instinct when our choirs aren't watching us is to just get bigger, you know. Well, it's not a matter of them not seeing you, it's you know, it the the correct answer is conduct less or almost stop conducting. So that way then they start to internalize that rhythm, and then you can then you know demand more of them in that reason in that respect. And and with with you know, or um, and I agree with you in terms of you you need it to know where the downbeat is. You need to, you know, because you know, these conductors who, you know, they're you know, they're doing like reindeer ears and antlers when they you know when they're when they're showing the form of the piece in that regard, as opposed to the beat, that that's why a lot of us we get a bad rap uh amongst our instrumental um uh colleagues, and I think for good reason, because we do need to have that structure, we need to do need to have command of the technique, you know, and uh so that when you know when something does happen, you can be there right with them.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Yeah, it's funny. I I'm uh whether whether you would call it arrogance or not, I I would hope not. But I I sometimes in rehearsal, if uh if I find that the the choir just not staying together, I'll just sit back and cross and cross my arms and I'll just sit there and wait for them to watch me and I start waving at people that are not looking. When I see people looking down at their music, I start waving or doing some kind of silly dance or thing just to get their attention. And when they're not still not looking up, everyone else starts sort of nudging them and giggling and laughing as well when they're singing, and gradually it comes back together and then I start conducting. I just say that what's the point of me conducting if you're not actually going to watch me. Um, but you've got to, you know, you you've I'm not I'm not conducting every beat, but I'm helping you get through the piece. I'm helping to structure the piece and make sure that we're all together delivering the the emotion, the story together, which is what it's about, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 28:16

Yeah. And and what you said about, you know, having the choir starting, having them start without you. That that is like my number one hack. I do that all the time, whether with it's with my touring group at the university, or I'm doing like a big festival choir of 200 singers. And I'll tell you, it it will take a lot of time. You you have them all in a giant circle and all kind of like sometimes for dramatic effect, just kind of lay down on the floor in the middle. They're all like looking at me, like, okay, so where do you get where are you gonna start? And I say, well, just go, you know, you'll need me. And then what will happen the first couple times is you get a couple, you know, uh folks in the choir who will kind of just step up there and and they'll they'll do it for everybody and be like, nope, do it again. I don't want anybody kind of taking over, you know, I don't want any choir heroes right now. I want you all doing it, and it will take 10, 15 times sometimes, and you just like it'll be together be like, nope, again, nope, again, and it'll take four or five minutes, but if that will be the best four or five minutes, they'll learn so much in that time period because then from that point on they'll figure out, oh my gosh, if we look at each other and we breathe together, we can do this. And so then when you do jump in, then it just has that much more impact.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

And and this all goes to show that it's not just all about singing, it's not all about the notes, it is about how you approach, it is about the psychology of singing, it's about the psychology of watching, it's about about as you say, you can relate it to sport. You can, you know, we're we're athletes in our own right. And your your new book, The Choir Playbook, which I'm very proud to have received here, thank you so much for sending me that. Um, it's called the Tools for the Imaginative Conductor. And I think I think that says a lot. I think I think the conductor should be imaginative, but they're not always, are they?

SPEAKER_01 30:00

I I think it goes back to the idea that we need to think of ourselves of as human beings who have interests outside of music. I know I already said that,

Creativity, Rest And Borrowed Metaphors

SPEAKER_01 30:10

but I think it's so important, and I think we need to embrace that and and we need to give ourselves a little slack and realize that you know, when there are moments when we are just sitting there maybe daydreaming, that there's actually stuff going behind the scenes, kind of behind the the hood of the car, that are actually getting figured out by our brain when we're resting. Uh, there's this area that I talk in a book about this uh this default mode network in our brain, which is sort of like Grand Central Station. Uh it's you know, it's where all the different parts of all the different experiences that we might have done that that day are starting to kind of pass through each other uh in this in this lobby area in the middle of our brain. And that's kind of what inspires creativity. That's why, you know, when we're uh our our best moments sometimes are our Eureka moments, sometimes are in the shower, because we're not really maybe thinking about something at the at the time. And that's what that's when those you know crazy little experiences that we might have had that day start to kind of bump into each other. And then we say, Oh, so I you know, I just I was throwing a ball yesterday and I'm having a problem getting my undergraduate conductor to to show this. And those ideas will then meet in that default mode network, and then okay, now I can maybe I can have that student, you know, holding a heavy metal pan in their conducting her class so they feel a sense of weight in their gesture, you know, and so it's it's that idea. And it's there's actually a great book by Alex Pang called Rest, and he talks about how you know uh you know uh it's in these moments when we aren't actively thinking about our profession that our best moments sometimes our best ideas come come out. And it the more that we can embrace our other interests, I think the better that makes us. And it also cuts back, I think, on teacher burnout, you know, which is huge, especially now when when teachers are asked to do more for less. Uh, you know, and I think it if if you have those those ways that you can kind of relax and and not be completely in your job 24-7, it's it's you know, it's just easy to say that, but if we can have those moments, then that that gets us recharged for the next day, you know.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

And and in and in the book, you you draw from you know all sorts of things. I mean, from you know neuroscience and psychology and sports and rhetoric and architecture, even typography. What was that uh interdisciplinary approach uh intentional from the beginning? I mean, when you started writing this book, was that always the intention to have all these cross-references?

SPEAKER_01 32:39

I think it ended up being just these started off actually just as a collection of notes that I just kind of kept for myself, just to be thinking about. And and the more that I then began to to work on the book, then my mind just started seeking out and just started uh, you know, uh yeah, that that uh that thing I read in that article about Pixar, you know, about animation techniques, uh, there's a there's a there's a correlation to how I can think about that animation technique and conducting. And there and there was. Uh and I don't think these ideas aren't really, I don't think they're they're far-fetched at all, because these are things that I've actually used in my own thinking, my own technique, my own way of presenting it to when I'm working with my choirs. And I think being in the environment that I've been in for 17 years, where I'm at a school where I've got engineering majors and neuroscience majors and history majors and a and a classical arts or a classical major who speaks like eight languages in my alto section, you know, those things that that was sort of like my uh my sandbox, you know, my rehearsal where where I would like mention these ideas and I would see like the the the the eyes like light up. Oh my gosh, yeah, we're just talking about that in my in my uh classical studies class, about how you know they're using uh gestures as a mnemonic device, like great Roman orators thousands of years ago. And we're just talking about that. And so it those types of things that just kind of inspired me to kind of lean in on that idea more. And because a lot of my singers, you know, and of course I have music majors as well, but a lot of most of my singers are there because they want to be there, not because they're they need to fulfill a specific credit. And so the the more that I was presenting some of these ideas to them, these metaphors, and then figuring out a way to connect that to what we're doing at the moment, you know, doing on some Palestreet and Motet, for example, then that just inspired me to kind of lean lean more on that idea.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

For most, for most choir singers, they're doing this for love. They're doing it as a hobby, they're doing it as a sport, they're doing it as something to, you know, to bring people together to a form of expression and so on. I think I think some singers, because of their personalities that are perhaps a little bit more introvert, they won't be so, dare I say, so interested in the psychology. They just want to turn up and sing and it makes them feel good, which in itself is psychology. It's you know that the feeling. What we're talking about. Well, why does it make you feel good? What is it about it that makes you feel good? It's all the psychology of singing. But how do we how do we communicate what we are trying to achieve here, which is to really get people to think more and talk more about what they're doing rather than just turning up and singing?

SPEAKER_01 35:22

I think first, you know, it's I always need to, you know, in my rehearsals, I always need to be careful because we've all been in rehearsals in which the conductors just they just talk, talk, talk, and our singers aren't there to hear us talk, they're there to sing.

SPEAKER_00 35:36

And so I hope no one from my choir is a listening right now.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

We're all guilty of it.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

We're all guilty of it.

SPEAKER_01 35:45

That for that first rehearsal, for example, I don't say I I make it a point the first day of the semester. I don't say a word the first 10 minutes. I just I gesture them to stand up and we rehearse. And so I think if you start with those experiences first, you know, uh then you start to sneak in maybe those ideas. Those, you know, I'm not gonna give them a neuroscience lecture, nor am I qualified to do that. Uh, but if you can sneak those ideas in there once in a while, uh, and you're right, you know, our singers come from so many different backgrounds. I, you know, we have some of our singers in all of our choirs who are super social, super uh um uh what's what's the word? Uh um I'm trying to think, uh, or they're just they're they're very, they just they get their high from just talking with people, right? And then we have others who are just they're in a choir because they want to kind of they don't want to be sing by themselves, they want to kind of hide, uh, you know, and and be able to sing, which they love doing. And so if we can get our have our singers feel comfortable in in whatever capacity, if they want to be, if they want to be that singer that kind of hides within their section a little bit, and then as a goal maybe over that semester is to kind of subtly get them to maybe feel like they can uh be a little more external with their uh with their performing uh style. And I know I'll often say, you know, we we have a Christmas concert. We still have a Christmas concert here in Texas, it's called a Christmas concert. Um, you know, well, they'll have like this giant jumbotron, you know, on the live stream, and invariably, you know, the camera person will always focus on that one person who doesn't look like look fully engaged, right? It's like you get frustrated. So I'll tell my seniors, you know what, you think you're trying to hide from you know from the camera or from being you know looking awkward by just kind of not showing anything. But if everyone else around you is looking engaged and you're not used to got like the sort of thumb, not the person who's completely vulnerable and just spring like this wide-mouth and open-eyed, uh, and then all video rehearsals, you know, and I'll have them, you know, I'll play it back for them and we'll giggle, you know, so-and-so is kind of you know not looking, and it makes it a fun thing. It's it I think I hope we've established this environment where nobody's feeling like you know, they can giggle about it, like, oh, so-and-so was like totally like not even looking at all. And and so they're aware of that. Uh, and so if you could just do little little things like that in rehearsal, um that that's what I that's what that's worked for me over the years.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

It's funny because uh I can't I can't say how many times I've had a conversation with my my choirs over the years about the fact that audiences pick out the people that are doing something different. That's a that's psychology in itself. You know, we that you it's always, you know, when you see a lineup of people, they're all doing exactly the same thing. Your eye naturally goes to the person that does something slightly different, whether it's a hand gesture, they clap the wrong way, they click, they move, they blink, they do something. You that's what we're drawn to. I always have this thing on stage. If I'm watching a musical on stage, I'll I'll just be distracted by something that's going on behind the side somewhere. It won't be the soloist at the front of the stage. It'll be because something else gets your attention, doesn't it? And I think it's a I I think I absolutely what you're saying. I mean, I I I love so much of what you've said today. Thank you. Thank you so much for bringing this to the show because it's been such a pleasure talking with you. But I think I think we need to encourage the introverts as well to show more expression in their singing and help them to do that.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

Yeah, that's that's the word I was going for, extrovert an introvert. I couldn't think of at the at the time. Um, I it I think too, a lot of as conductors, you know, we're often when we're in front of a choir, we have this extroverted side to us. But you know, for me, you know, I after that, after I have this experience like that, sometimes I just need to kind of just say go by myself and just, you know, just you know, just kind of just chill out after that. You know, I I don't and I think a lot of us as conductors, we we are what we need to be at the moment. We we're allowed to be introverts and extroverts, you know, depending on the context, depending upon who we're with. And the more that we do, like you said, when you're when you're meeting somebody for the first time and you are, you know, a lot of it subconsciously or consciously starting to mimic each other, that allows that that connection and that allows you then to uh to to be able to understand what they're saying because your your bodies are now physically mimicking and the chemical, your chemical makeup is actually starting to uh to synchronize as well. That's what you know that back back in your country in the 2013s, there are a lot of studies came out of the UK with regards to the chemicals in our in our bodies and how the chemical makeup of our blood actually changed before and after rehearsals, which is crazy to me. I mean, that's like real magic type stuff, which is now you we can prove that after you've seen in a choir with people that you start to have that some of the hormones in your bodies that actually influence empathy and influence connection actually increase. And you can actually look at like the you can look at the charts and actually be able to say, Oh, those people were just signed together because their their levels start to synchronize. You're not even looking at people, you're looking at their blood levels, and you knew that they had just had a common experience. That's crazy to me. And as conductors, if we're aware of that of that kind of power that's happening under the hood of our singers, I think we have we're we're we're we're obligated to find ways to to use those forces, those unseen forces, in ways that that uh empower our singers that make better performances.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

So I'm sure I'm sure there are lots of people who who are listening today uh getting so much from what we've just been talking about. I mean, they uh you know I'm learning tons just listening to you as well. It's it's just fantastic talking with you. What what key advice could you people could you give people some tips that they could literally walk into the rehearsal room tomorrow and try out to get communication going better?

SPEAKER_01 41:41

I think what we had still uh kind of hit upon before is have the singers perform something without you waving your arms in front of them.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

Great, I get a night off.

SPEAKER_01 41:52

Yeah, that that's that's yeah, and then just go out for a coffee. But I think and and yeah, yeah, yeah,

Rehearsal Tips You Can Try Tomorrow

SPEAKER_01 41:59

there's there's certain you know, there's a few philosophies. Uh, I'm trying to think of who which which uh really famous conductor it was, uh, who would say that he wouldn't even conduct a choir until they knew all their notes because they weren't really watching you anyhow. They were too busy looking about the learning, figuring out what E flat was, as opposed to uh to to looking at your beautiful four pattern, right? Uh and I think that also as a conductor, when you're putting this that on the singers, that actually I think opens up ears. That then that allows you to kind of listen more, to hear what's going on, and you get to watch more of what you're doing. And and again, then we're no longer self-conscious. I think that the the most dangerous thing as a conductor is to be self-conscious about what your arms are doing or what your body's doing. I think the moment you're self-conscious about that, it's like with anything. Uh I'll I'll share a super quick story. Um, this was just a about a month ago. Uh, I mentioned before I'm coaching my daughter's uh nine-year-old softball team, and my daughter, her hand-eye coordination is like through the roof. Uh, but she was having this moment of wherever a couple of weeks where she just could not hit the ball. And it was like out of nowhere, she wasn't hitting the ball. And yeah, here I am. I'm gonna I'm gonna try to fix things. We're gonna work back, we're gonna talk about technique, we're gonna work on this and work over, you know, just back to the basics. And it wasn't helping. And and you know, duh finally in in my infinite, you know, um, quote genius, uh, you know, I'm I'm uh I'm like, well, what's going on here? And and I I finally figured out that, you know what, she's just thinking about this. She never thought about hitting the ball, she just instinctively just did it. And here I am trying to tell her, move her arm like this, do this, shift your body here, you know, choke up on the bat. And it just made things worse, right? And and so the the more we just got back to, you know, we just we then took this big bouncy ball in the living room and we're just bouncing. And I just had her bouncing and hitting the ball, it made a game out of it. She wasn't thinking about the technique. And and the more I think we can get our conductors uh as conducting that we can be a little subconscious about our gestures. Um there's a funny story about Leonard Bernstein, you know, where there's a I think there's a picture of him on the New York Times after one of his concerts with the New York Phil, and he was like a few inches in the air. And some comment or somebody I commented on it, and he said, I have no idea what I just did last night. Who knows what I looked like? Right? Because we're focused on the sound, not the not what we did to get the sound. And I think we focus on the product, the brain is wired to get us there. Now, what we do need, we need to learn the technique so that we create the most effective way to show that. But I think we if we focus on that, and if we our singers, if our singers can focus on the overall sound as opposed to uh, you know, yeah, I think that's that's so important. So I yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:42

It's that feeling of flow, isn't it? It's it's losing yourself in the moment. Uh it's interesting what you said about Bernstein, because I, you know, you do you have you go through a a performance where you just can't remember any of it because you were in it. You were so in it that you don't remember exactly what you did at what point and what I don't remember doing that, but you know, that's why it's so amazing to watch yourself, you know, to to see some photos, to see some video, because you learn so much from what just watching yourself because you don't realise you're doing it at the time. Uh it's fascinating. Uh Gary, thank you so much for coming on the show today. It's been such a pleasure. Um, we've we've you know talked about anything and everything to do with uh this amazing world of choir. Uh and uh this choir playbook is fantastic, and uh I hope lots of people get to read it. Um, and I hope we do really well with the book. I think it's uh fantastic book to read, and uh I love the whole idea of of this you know playground of uh uh of great ideas and imagination. Thank you so, so much.

SPEAKER_01 45:37

Well, I appreciate Russell. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 45:42

Thank you so much for listening to the Choir Director Podcast. It's been wonderful having you here today. And if you found today's conversation valuable, please take a moment to leave us a rating and review. It genuinely helps us reach more choir directors and grow this community together. And don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if you know a fellow director who'd benefit from today's conversation or any of the amazing guests we've had on the show, please share it with them. It means the world to us and it could make a huge difference to them. To stay connected between episodes

Final Thoughts And How To Stay Connected

SPEAKER_00 46:13

so you never miss a thing and receive exclusive content, do join our mailing list. Link is in the show notes. And if you have a question about today's topic or any of the topics that we're covering, perhaps a question to our guest or something you'd love us to explore on a future episode, you can email the studio or leave us a voicemail. Both links are waiting for you in the show notes. Well, thanks again for being part of the Core Directors podcast. I'm Russell Scott, and until next time, goodbye.