Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Welcome to the choir director podcast, the essential resource for choir directors, conductors, and vocal leaders who want to build stronger choirs, run better rehearsals, and create outstanding musical experiences. Well, a welcome back to the choir director podcast with me, Russell Scott. This is episode 22. And my guest today is a composer, conductor, pianist, and choral clinician from Kansas City who has spent 20 years refusing to fit into a single genre. His original compositions are sung in over 17 countries. His ensemble ordained has accumulated over a million views on social media. And in 2023, he made his debut at Carnegie Hall. Today we're talking about crossing musical borders, building gospel choirs from the ground up, and what it really takes to develop singers. Please welcome the legendary Isaac Case. I am so humbled to have you on the show today. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for having me. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

I don't know about legendary, but I do my best.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

No, no, I'm I am I can't believe that the incredible uh versatility that you have, you know, from composing to conducting, pianist, arranger, clinician. I mean, where does it stop? And we have a crossover between classical and gospel music, which is which is really quite, you know, inspiring. Tell me, tell me a little bit more about how this all began and and how this started between the crossover of classical

Growing Up Between Church And Conservatoire

SPEAKER_02 1:40

and gospel music.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Yeah, you know what's interesting is that it wasn't something that I um was intentional about. I mean, uh I I uh I'm from Kansas City, and I grew up in uh the Baptist church, and I uh uh so we had choirs, and I grew up in what we call a high Baptist Church Metropolitan Baptist Temple. And we, when I say high church, that means um we did a lot of anthems and spirituals and more of the choral sounds from a Eurocentric setting, but we also did gospel music too. So we did Kirk Franklin and you know Hezekiah Walker, that kind of thing. Um, but then we would turn around and sing inflammatis or uh Handel's Messiah or something, you know what I mean? You know, um uh Hallelujah from the Mount of Olives, you know, sort of thing. So it was we always had the pedigree was there. And my mother made me uh take classical piano at the age of four, which I actually hated when I was uh, you can imagine as a little boy, I just didn't feel like doing it. I was like, I wanted to just go and ride my bike and play, and I did, but it was like after you practice, you know, so she sort of made me do that, and I'm grateful, of course, now. Um, you know, and then I uh sung in the choir when I was a a kid uh at church, and then of course I was in um uh piano lessons uh when I at the age of four, and then voice lessons at the age of 13. Um 12 or 13, I sort of take a study in voice. And so, and then I'd already been in choir. So for me, I was already introduced to all of the you know the classical rep, you know, especially from a pianistic standpoint. Um, you know, I was playing, you know, Hannon and Cherny and all the exercises and um, you know, and and then uh the minuets and Bach and and that sort of thing, and then moved on to Rachmaninoff and all the different the um uh periods in music. And then, but at the same time, I was still listening to, I grew up in a black household. So we were listening to jazz, funk, RB, George Clinton, you know, Parliament, um, Earth, Wind and Fire, uh Donnie Hathaway, you know, uh Luther Van Dross. I mean, these are uh, I mean, behind me you see Stevie Wonder, you know. Um I grew up in that, so I grew up in a very musical uh household, even though I was an only child. Um uh but my mother was a could sing, had a beautiful voice, and could play a little piano, and my father was a huge lover of all things music. And so uh I think that's just kind of how it just naturally um uh came together. I think for me, I just realized that when I started setting theory, I was like, well, a C major chord is the same in every language, it's the same in every style. You know what I mean? I mean, those notes that comprise it are the same. That what we do with them rhythmically and you know, uh dynamically and musically and lyrically and all the things, that is where the where the definition comes with regards to you know style and genre and and whatnot. But essentially the and it's bones, it's the same. I think that was a kind of like, okay, that for some reason impacted me. Um, you know, and then that that there could possibly be uh a marriage, you know what I mean, of those things. I didn't see, I saw it as good music in general, you know. And then I think that the the the single most uh important instrumental uh work that inspired me to how powerful music can just be, even music without words, just like some symphonic music. Uh and Alpine Symphony, I say it all the time by Strauss. Um uh just even though he was very not religious, he was a very different person. Um we are very different backgrounds. I do believe what he some of the things he composed is divine, with those tone poems, and just when you see, and then it opens up with with with uh night and the double basses, everything's just rumbling, and there's this sort of uh you know uh grimacing, foreboding thing, and then all of a sudden it just lightens with a bum bum bum bum and with a ray of light, and then and I was just kind of like, you know what? No, you can't tell me God didn't inspire this by some way. Um and so I I I see I saw God in that too. And so I just started making connections with that.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

It it's amazing to talk to a a gospel leader and who who has such classical intelligence. And I don't mean that by in terms of you know how clever you are or anything like that. I don't mean I don't it even it mean I don't mean it to be insulting in any way. No, I don't know. What I mean by that is is that it's almost that you've been inspired by classical music and that it's really touched the soul so much that it's had a it's had a guidance through your through your gospel world.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

That's very true. That's very true. I mean, I I I um that's a very eloquent way to put it because that's that's it's the truth. I mean, it really has um uh and then also because of the fact that you know you you you of course connect to composers who like Bach, who was very religious in his mind, and his in his devout in his faith, and you know, to the point writing on scores. And um and uh I I for me it's paramount that that music is is grounded in something that's more than just the act of music, um, because it's such a reflection of of what's inside of your thoughts, of your heritage, of your imagination, of your hurts, of your faith base. I mean, it's it's such a in arts in general, right? But I mean it's specifically music, uh, and it has it it has the power to sort of touch on all those things. And so for me, I look at it as all good, man. I I really have always um uh and then of course you get people like the Richard Smallwoods, Rest in Peace, who's a dear friend of mine and mentor to me, um, who when I finally heard his music when I was, oh, I don't know, probably seven or eight, um, I was like, man, yeah, I first heard his music at church, sung at our church and stuff like that. And I was like, this is beautiful. And I saw the scores and I didn't see music written down a lot from you know gospel music, and that was cool. But then when I first heard his choir Vision, I said, Whoa, I said, well, one, we ain't singing this as good as they are. This is how the song actually goes. And two, man, his this man has done stuff that I think I already wanted, I've already had the idea to do. Um, and so it was so refreshing um to delve down his work with the small wood singers and then vision and um and see that, and it really inspired me. Um, as well as so many others. Another group called um Colorblind, Eddie James, he's a wonderful uh songwriter. He does a lot of CCM music, but he had a group called Colorblind, and he did this version of the 23rd Psalm that had all of this uh um sort of polyphony, uh uh uh staggered um syncopation in his version of the 23rd Psalm. And I was like, I want to do something like that. Um and so I always and then James Hall, who's another wonderful gospel artist, but has a very uh classical influence in the way that he does his voice leading and his chordal structure. Um I don't know, I was just really inspired by that. Um and I'm also inspired by different musical genres in general, you know what I mean? So I love listening, you know, to like, okay, what is the the what does it sound like, you know, from a reggae perspective? That's cool. What do they do that, you know, or if we're using and constructing something from a uh a Latin perspective, what does it sound like to do that rhythmically? And so I I've always loved pastiche as well. I love it, um, not in an insulting way, but in a way that really borrows from the sounds of a heritage, you know. I love Alan Minken, who was kind of really behind a lot of the Disney revival of music, and that's what he's done is he's taken styles from all these different genres, and I said, Man, that's brilliant. And then, of course, I love nationalist composers. So when I went to Norway um in Bergen, I was in the home of uh of of the incredible um uh Edvard Grieg, who I studied, and I was like, Well, I gotta play some Edward Grieg on the piano. So I did some arranging for that. So I I see it as good. It tells stories and it carries a heritage as well.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

I think it's important to to sometimes just go back to what did inspire you musically because I think it's very easy when we're when we're working as choir directors to to be guided what you by what you're doing now and to find new music and things that you really love. But it's amazing sometimes to just go back to something that you loved perhaps when you were in your teens that you used to listen to, bring it back and see what effect it has on you now. I find it it's a very grounding experience to do that, I think. Just to go back to what was it? What was it that made me feel the way I did when I was that age? Because you, you know, nostalgia plays a m a massive part. I think it it's interesting what you said because I I see music as my religion. Um because music's always guided me. And I think I think when when people associate uh gospel music with um the the people behind it, they always assume it's all religious music, it's all church music, because that's you know where it's come from. But it's interesting what you said because you have such an an affiliation with different kinds of music, yet you lead in the gospel field, but you've had this amazing crossover, haven't you, be fit between between music. You've brought up Alan Menkin. I mean, you know, that couldn't be further from gospel music. Um it's amazing. Except for Hercules, except for Women's Day. Except for Hercules. Except for Hercules. And that that's and that's actually playing in London at the moment on stage. And um the the gospel singers are just phenomenal, phenomenal singers.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

These guys these girls are amazing.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

That's incredible.

Disney Scores And Symphonic Storytelling

SPEAKER_02 11:06

Do you have a do you do you find do you find things like Disney inspiring in the work you do?

SPEAKER_00 11:13

Oh, absolutely. I mean, uh the the uh first I have an imagination that's crazy vivid. So I love anything that is that is requires you to to to to create a world and world building and an aesthetic, creating a language. I love the idea like Tolkien, I love Star Wars, I love John Williams, um, because they're taking all these classical um uh uh sensibilities of being able to have like a motif and then expound upon it and then and attribute that to a character, but then have it to come back, you know, later on as a recall and theme and development. I love all of that. I I love it so much. So yeah, Disney, I mean, having uh was it Steven Schwartz and Tim Rice and um all these incredible collaborative artists, of course. You think about um uh um oh my goodness, he's on tour. Uh they did the Lion King, um, Hans Zimmer, how he brought in Lebo M to, you know, you know, Lion King was so amazing to and they started off with that incredible chant, you know. So they brought in authentic, you know, you know, people from that musical tradition to impact what we felt. That's brilliant, man. Um they went to Africa, didn't they?

SPEAKER_02 12:21

They went to Africa to capture the sounds.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

Yes. Or the Hunchback of Notre Dame, and they I think they, you know, they recorded, I think an organ there in London, I think they did, I can't remember. But I mean, the fact that they did that so authentically, and I mean, one, that they created a budget to do it, but then two, they respected the art style enough to even though it's in this animated feature film, they're like, no, we're not gonna play this down. We're not playing this down for just children. We're gonna give you something that of some authentic with authenticity, you know. And I think that is just um brilliant. I think that is brilliant. So, yes, I am very inspired by um uh uh things like Disney and and and and and composers like the John Williams that who've who uh contributed music to film. Um, because I feel like people like John Williams, he's the modern day um GOAT, you know, with regards to helping symphonic music to proliferate, you know what I mean? If not for the movies, then when would the layperson hear it if they didn't go to it, you know? Um and I think that's so cool.

How Classical Shapes His Writing

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Yeah, how much how much classical music uh inspires your own compositions?

SPEAKER_00 13:56

That's a good question. You know what? Um it it just depends on what I'm working on. Um it depends on uh I don't I don't it's interesting because I don't I very rarely well no, it depends on what I'm working on. Um because like so for as a composer, um I think I told you about the large piece that I had composed, Canon for Racial Reconciliation, which um is a piece that premiered about almost three years ago. It was commissioned and it and it merges gospel, black style singing, and um uh music, the oral the excuse me, the a cappella tradition of uh the the Orthodox Church. Um and so uses those liturgical elements. Um and so that's very classical. I mean, it's SATB with the VZ, double choir, um so we can primitive, I think, 70 voices. Um and it's so uses all these different traditions, you know. Um so that's my more, I guess you call it serious music, if you want to call it that. Um but then uh when I'm working on something like let's say my Lord's Prayer, um, I when I set that, I did an arrangement of that uh, oh my god, a little over 20 years ago, um, and published it. And I think it's it affects my process for composition. And so when I was setting, I said, okay, I want to set, I mean, I sat down, okay. Let me let me let me arrange this. And I think I just started with saying the words, okay, our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done. I mean, right? And so then I said, okay, well, let me just use practical sensibilities. Our father, let me let's get a cadence. So I just spoke. Our father, which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. I said, okay, there's a, okay, so maybe there's a three. Our father would chart in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come. Okay, yeah. Our father would chart in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy will be done. So I said, okay, where we're having all these sixties, that that that that that that that, you know, and I said, okay, well, there's an impulse, there's there's a uh a pulse that's happening right there. So I knew that it was going to be start off in like a three. Um, and just from there, I was like, okay, I think C sharp minor is the way to go because I'm a pianist and how many amazing pieces that we played in C sharp minor. Um, thank you, Chopin, thank you, Rachman and Nov. Um, and so they influenced uh that and so when I went to that, I don't and I'm I wasn't even thinking about it, it just happened, you know. So um and then and then when I go so I want to pick up on something you you you just said.

SPEAKER_02 16:21

So you were talking about black style singing. Now, can you talk me through that?

What Black Style Singing Means

SPEAKER_02 16:30

Now I just want to I want to pick up on something you just said because I'm fascinated by the term you use, which was black style singing. Now, how does that differ from gospel singing or RB singing or any other style of singing? What's specific about that term?

SPEAKER_00 16:46

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's uh I think they're all they're definitely uh they're they're all related. Um, you know, that's the first thing. Um gospel singing, when we when we think about it now, and we when it's used in a in a contemporary setting, it essentially is derived from a black style of singing. When I say gospel, it's from a most people are thinking about it from a like early 1900s kind of a situation when gospel music started to really become a acknowledged as a genre. So they think in Thomas Dorsey, they think in Great Migration, where um people from the south started to come up north. Um, um, you know, so I think that's when they're thinking, but it's much older than that. Um when I say black style, I mean long before it was even a religious, you know, uh it was a can considered to be a genre. You think about like, you know, you know, transatlantic slave trade, you know, coming over across the Atlantic from Benin. So it's rhythmic, it's pulsy. Um, you know, I'm talking about that far back, you know. Um it is it is earthy, it is the genesis of what we know um from cultural perspective of music, you know. Um and so there are certain um attributes that are all that are already that are always there, um, which are rhythm, rhythmic things, uh uh strong uh downbeats, strong access on the upbeat as well. Um syncopation, uh the way it's it's not a overly manufactured sound in that it's not uh belcanto, um, it's it's not rounded, tall vowels, it's it's really gutsy, it's it's it's in your face, it's chest uh driven. If you don't talk about the attributes of the sound itself. Um and then you came to America, you think about South Carolina, you know, you think about the the Gulagichi people, um, where dance is so much involved with it. It it's you can't we don't sing and we're not still. I'm being still now so that I don't freeze, but like they move, you know, it is a it is a part of us. So when they're like, well, why do you why do choirs move so much? Or why are they clapping so hard on two and four? Um or why are they um because it's that's the black style. Um it comes from a much older uh uh thing than what we know as just a genre of gospel music, far before artistry. Um, the black musical idiom, it it's it's old. Call and response, you know, um that's a very old thing. And that's of course, of course, call and response is in more cultures than just black as well. You know, that's in quite a few different cultures. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

I like this a lot because I think there's a lot of taboo around naming, particularly with labeling, anything to do with, you know, a colour of a skin. Because it's not just it's not about that really. I think I think it's as you say, it goes far beyond that, far beyond that musically. And I and it's it's amazing how in the last probably 15 to 20 years more non-black, I say non-black specifically because it's not about colour, it's it's it's uh it it it doesn't have to be white or or Asian or anything, it's nothing to do with that. But more non-black singers and non-black choirs are singing black music and gospel music, and there have become a massive wave of of gospel choirs forming um outside of those areas, which I think is a wonderful thing for for music. How do you think absolute art form? It's an art form. Absolutely, and absolutely an art form. Um and I'm being very careful how I say this because I because I think it is very important that that we we distinguish that. Um but I also I also would be very interested in in in some ideas and some tips for choir directors that are running, that are non-black and that are running choirs, gospel choirs, that want to try and get that true gospel sound. How can they how can they get better at producing that sound and sing that style of music?

SPEAKER_00 20:29

That's a great question. Um the

Learning Gospel Without Faking It

SPEAKER_00 20:31

first thing I would say is you cannot teach that which you do not know. Um and you cannot replicate that which you've not authentically experienced. So that's the first thing. I would say what I mean when I say that. Um I don't want to talk because I'm freezing. Let me be still. No, I don't so I everything I say, I don't I don't tend to do quotable things. I tend to say stuff I feel them. I don't remember how I actually said that. But oh no, I think I I think I said you cannot teach, um, you can't teach that. I can't, you you really honestly um you cannot teach that which you've not authentically experienced or studied. Um and and it's it's hard to replicate uh things that you haven't somehow been immersed in at some point. Um and so when I say that I mean from a gospel standpoint, one of the things that you can do is first of all use all the resources that you have. First of all, fall in love with the music first. You know what I mean? Um I I'd say first take it in. Uh there's so many resources and use whatever your background is in music. What I mean when I say that, if you're an educator, take it from an educated perspective. Um, there are wonderful resources out there now of people who have compiled uh uh their dissertations, they've compiled uh history. You know, there's I uh in right on my wall right now, I have uh uh tons of books on literature of um of gospel music. Um Braxton Shelley, he's an incredible uh professor. Um I think he's at Yale, and he's he wrote a book on Total Praise or healing, I think, and call in response to Richard Smallwood. You have uh Dr. Andre Thomas, who's written wonderful resources on spiritual singing. So I'd say that's the first thing is if that's your perspective from an educated thing where you're where you academically you do that, then do that. Um there's a wonderful book called The Gospel of Music Encyclopedia by Bill Carpenter. Um, and it's literally a just This compilation of all these gospel artists you may have you may and may not have heard of. And if you just want to open up every day and learn about somebody new, you can. Or you got the internet, and you can learn all the music and listen to the records of uh Donald Lawrence, listen to the records of the Hawkins family, Andre Crouch, Richard Smallwood, Twinkie Clark, James Cleveland. Um there's a there's there's a lot of resources out there now. And you can actually get undergrad and master's degrees in gospel music now. Um so that is, it's there's no reason for it to be nebulous and vague or unintelligent in our in our approach to it. You know what I mean? I I do I don't like it when people are like, well, I don't know what to do. Um we'll call someone, you know, feedback. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? Just like, and then find out where the black churches are, you know, and just and ask around what is the style of music? You know what I mean? If you're somewhere and you're in the UK and you know there's a Volney Morgan, call him up. You go get some gospel music, you know what I mean? Like, um uh, or if you're in, I don't know, if you live in Alabama, you know, um uh and you want to know you want something that's a little more connected to maybe classical style, find out where the aliens will be seeing. Maybe go visit Oakwood College Church, you know. Um, like I'd say that if you're in and go visit first Baptist Glenn Art, if you're in DC. I mean, just find that out um because there's the word of mouth thing as well. And I'd say go and hear it in an authentic way. And then also, so that's just using your ears, you know, and your eyes and just seeing and also seeing what it feels like in real time. You know, I would say not just watching movies. Don't just watch, you know, Tyler Perry film or uh, and those are great, you know, um, but you know, or uh what is it? Um uh uh well I mean I guess you could watch one. I mean, so like, you know, you would if you Steven Spielberg's uh the color purple, um that that scene, the church scene and that, that was done by Andre Crouch, the music and that, you know. So ironically, that actually is a little more authentic, you know. Um and so, but I'd say not just that, it'd be good to see it in real, in real practice, in real time. Um and so then I'd say make friends. Um and so first immerse yourself in it, you know, go listen to it, and don't even try to replicate it. And then I'd say maybe even try to see if you can sit in a choir rehearsal and find out how we learn music by rote, you know. Learn then what are the actual how do we do it structurally? Is it the you know, a lot of the music is tertiary, so we have just SAT. A lot of times we don't have a baritone or bass part. So figure that out. Use your brain if you're if you're if you are if that's your background already, right? So I'd say use those elements, don't fight against them, use them, you know, and then take it in. Then it's like, okay, now I'm ready. And then if you need a score, teach from a score. There's nothing wrong with that. Let that and just don't just don't stay stuck to it, you know. I mean, because you the music has to illuminate at some point. And you and you need to know the tradition. So if the tradition is we call in response and we change and we add and we're gonna sing it until it's done. Yeah, we know the code is has X number of times until we get there. We may sing it five times, we may sing it six. We may not sing it at all. You know what I mean? So I'd say so. And knowing that. But I'd say if you're a choir person and you're wanting to uh like get more of that for your choirs and that sort of thing, and you're wanting to know more about that, it's nothing wrong with asking questions. It's nothing wrong, you're always invited. Know about the national conferences. You still have the Thomas Dorsey Convention for Gospel Choirs and Courses. That's Thomas Dorsey's, it is one of the oldest in the United States and it's still going. It's getting ready to happen this summer. You have the Gospel News Workshop of America, GMWA. Still going, Reverend James Cleveland. And so um, I'd say that may mean, and if you're European, that may mean you have to make a pilgrimage here. Um, but I'd say do it. It it would be worth it. And if gospel choirs are coming there, um, I'd say connect with that as well. Um, you know, and then I'd also say to conductors, um ask questions and have relationships. You know, um, don't just bring the artist, the black artist to come and uh and yeah, bring us, because I'm grateful y'all bring me, but bring us, but ask questions while you're there. If you play piano, say, hey, can we sing that? How are you how are you playing that? Or what are you adding there? Or what are you doing with the singers uh to get that sound out of them? You know, ask those questions. Build some time in for that. Um, because if they only if we only come over as artists where we sing real good, teach to everybody good, then it's just like we're just like a whimsical, magical black person that just came through and just waved our magic wands, and then you can't duplicate any of the things that which we've taught, you know.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

I think people are are scared. I think I think they're they're I think they're shy. I think I think it's out of respect.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

They mean well, you know, I understand that.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

Absolutely. And I think I I think over the years people have I don't know, I I can remember 30 years ago. I remember being in Barbados on holiday, on vacation, and I remember walking past a church, and the most incredible sound was coming out of this church. It was that gospel sound that I I think I probably heard for the first time. I was way too scared to walk in there because that's understandable.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

And you know, I but you know what though? The reason why, um, and and and you and you were valid in your it's it's normal to have that because you were drawn by the music, but you didn't have a relationship with anybody there, right? Right? So you didn't know anyone, so you weren't wrong for being, I think that's human. I think we would all, I mean, we've all um I'm that crazy person that's bold enough to like, I like what they're singing, let me go inside. I don't know, can I go inside?

SPEAKER_02 27:53

But it's such a welcoming, it's such a welcoming community, the gospel community. But it doesn't, but you still feel like, look, I'm this, I'm this white British person, I'm in a foreign country, and it's a gospel community, it's a church community, I don't belong to that church. I hear this amazing sound. I want to go in, I want to feel it, I want to be part of it. But I'm way too scared to do that because I'm thinking, what are they gonna do to me when I walk in? It'll be like, you know, that scene uh in the there was a uh a movie called uh an American werewolf in London, and they all walk into this pub, and as soon as this guy walks into the pub, everybody just stops what they're doing and looks at them walking into the door. Uh uh and walk out as they walk in the door. And I felt like that would have happened if I'd walked into that church. Everything would have stopped and they would have just turned around and stared at me until I walk out, you know?

SPEAKER_00 28:40

And you're not, you're not, and you know what? Here's the thing you're you're not alone in your your assessment of that, or you're thinking you may not even be wrong in that. Um uh um, but I tell you this much black people have had to live through that as a classical musician. Um that that's my our lived experience all the time. You know, we are still the minorities here in the United States and and everywhere, basically. Um and so we are always sort of assimilating, you know, we're always sort of have to deal with microaggressions, we're always having to be um extremely gracious to people who've said insensitive things. Um uh so yeah, it is it's it is a little uncomfortable, but it's also our lived experience, especially as an academician. Um uh and I've learned, I and I tell you, the good news is that because of relationships, because of conversations like this, because of collaborations, those things are not as nearly as uh uh uh inescapable as they once were. You know what I mean? Um it is true that you it it's it's always better when you need a when you have a relationship. And that's even if you're going into like a like you were going to a white church, even like for you, going into a church that was just with all, you wouldn't necessarily just go if you didn't know anybody there, you know what I mean? You know, you you feel a little awkward, you wouldn't feel uh out of place, um, being that you're the only white guy, because there'd be people that look like you. And that touches something in our primal basis because we all want to fit in, right? We want community, we all want to belong. That's the human nature aspect of it. But, and that, and I think that is just how we're we're wired, we're hearts at wired to be that way. But when you have relationships, that sort of can circumvent all of that, you know what I mean? So when you're intentional about your people group that you hang out with, um, and I don't think this is this is gonna be controversial what I'm gonna say here,

Relationships Over Assumptions Across Cultures

SPEAKER_00 30:29

um, but I mean it. Um, I don't I don't think everyone should that you in your friend group should think and feel exactly as you. You know what if you what are you what life are you living? I mean, that's if that's what you choose, uh sure that's to you, but I mean, think about all the tremendous people that you're missing on. I have friends who are not Christians, you know. I famously did, oh famously, but I did a collaboration with my dear friend Michael McGlynn and his group, Anuna, um, uh an Irish group um there, and he's one of the, of course, foremost composers of uh Irish music in general, choral music, and he's uh, you know, controversial in some ways. Um, but uh he was uh he's a brilliant, I think he's a genius musician. And we collaborated on a piece called Mao Lau. He was at the time the I think the artistic director of the Tampere Music Festival in Finland. I was supposed to go there, but COVID. So they had a a virtual one and they featured us, and then for that it was commissioned for us to do a song. So we collaborated, and I put my group together, ordained a gospel singing group, most of us and are all Christians and that kind of thing, singing together with his group from an Irish choral tradition, which in its genesis is very ancient. Um, and some could argue and say pagan, you know, just the stories themselves, you know. Um, but did I care about that? No. Did I know about what we were singing? Yes. Did I make sure that it aligned and or didn't disalign with things that we believe in or was sacrilegious? Yes. And was he respectful? Absolutely. And so what did I learn from that? Um, culture. I learned story. We made something beautiful and it was artistic, and we sang about love. We sang about um singing together in a new world. Ma lauler just that means I think new earth. Um, uh, and and it was in it, and I learned all of this wonderful culture about Finnish culture, you know, that I had knew nothing about. The the Kalavala, um, you know, the national epic of Finland, talks about Weinen Moinen, all of these that I learned how, you know, that was, and that's their heritage. And by learning about their heritage and respecting it, I was able to then find areas of connection artistically. I was able to have new friends, and then I was able to confidently share my background. You understand? We have to have empathy for one another. So I do a lot of gospel workshops in places uh in Europe where there, of course, there are not a lot of, you know, Christians or whatever, and sometimes in some instances. Um, and of course, English is not their first language, their mother language. Even in Scandinavia, where they speak it extremely well, it's still not their mother tongue, you know? And I think that is just so brilliant that they take the time to do that. Um, but I also wanted to know what they're singing about. Um, and my thing is, I'm gonna respect your culture, you will respect mine, you know, we're gonna have relationship with this together. What does that look like? What does that look like? So when I went and did uh, like I told you when I was in uh Norway and was in Bergen, uh they were just shocked. What is this big black dude? How does he know our Edvard Grieg? And I'm playing Morning Mood, and and I and they I knew more about him than they did. I did a workshop in Leipzig and they were like, how does he know all of this about Bach? I said, Well, I mean, I've been a fan of his music for decades. So, um, and it and it made them think, you know, wow, I mean, if he can dig that deep into our music, then if he tells us we're pronouncing a word wrong, or if he tells us to sing it how he says sing it, we can all we can we can find out why and we can do that. You know what I mean? I used his example when I was in Leipzig. I said, if you see the name W-A-G-N-E-R, and if you're in the States, they would pronounce it just Wagner, right? And I said, at the count of three, you know, how would you pronounce it? Um, one, two, three, and everybody goes Wagner. I said, right. I said, which which one is the correct way, technically, from a historical standpoint? And they said Wagner. I said, correct. I said, why? And they said, well, because he was from here, it is ours. I said, exactly. Exactly. And so if I could learn that, then if you come to the States or you're singing music from my tradition, and I say we do a melisma, you know, here, you know, or we or we embellish the note, you know, here, or we'll hold it longer than what the value is written there. Which one is correct? Mine, because it comes from my tradition. And then the last thing is that I'd say um some of it's just semantics. I mean, I use the word melisma, and we call them riffs and runs, you know, and they make this big deal about gospel singers. Oh, I can't add lib. Well, if you've sung opera then, when you've ever sung Reci Tati, you probably can add lib because you know, you're essentially riffing on some approximate notes that they kind of gave you. You know what I mean? You know, that's that's what a you know, a melismatic passage or where they just you know roll a chord and you just kind of go for it on these notes. What's the difference? A pentatonic scale in Asian music is the same pentatonic scale that we do riffs, skipping notes in popular styles of black singing. You know? Um, and so that's that's just how my mind works with that. I I see the the synergy in it all.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

Well, some incredible, incredible stories and advice there. It's it's it's amazing talking with you. It really is. Because I think there's this big assumption that uh you know you talk to somebody that's you know prolifically involved gospally that they're not gonna know about anything else. And that's so untrue. No, no, it's acknowledging that. It is, yeah, and I think uh it's interesting because I'm I've been talking to some amazing people these last few weeks, and we've got some incredible guests lined up who I I've had some fantastic conversations with them. And it's it's such it's such intelligent conversation about music. And you know, music is is a language in itself, it's a religion in itself. It's it's it means something different to everyone. It's also very individual, and that's that's an amazing thing. It's interesting you brought up about Andre um Thomas because I was singing with the Netherlands radio choirs many years ago, and uh we were I was uh singing some pretty pretty big uh operatic and classical music there, and uh it's a a phenomenal choir who I still still uh applaud and uh love watching and following their stuff. But he came in to do a concert with us on black gospel music. And we're sitting there, so I I'm sitting there, I'm I've been called in as an extra singer, and so it's uh you know, obviously a a Dutch choir, um almost solely white and very uh very classical in its form. And uh we're all sat there, and I'm classically trained as well, and I've we're all sitting there, and he comes in to try and teach us these gospel uh uh spirituals and various uh other gospel music, and it was it's just the the most it just you just could not picture it. You couldn't picture this this situation everybody's sitting there very prim and proper, ready to sing some gospel music, and they're all very classical, and we're all prim, you know, sitting there. And what a phenomenal experience. That was the first time, I think, for me personally, I'd ever had a connection with gospel music. It was this was probably 25 years ago now, and I suddenly had this new appreciation for a new type of music that I have I had found. And what he only did with that music. I mean, you've you've experienced it yourself, you you know the man, uh, and you've you've you've had some music commissioned that he's that he's worked on. Tell us, tell us more about that.

SPEAKER_00 37:53

Yes, I cannot say enough positive things about Dr. Andre Thomas. He is the GOAT, as we call him here. He is the

Andre Thomas And Making Gospel Teachable

SPEAKER_00 38:00

teacher of teachers, um, retired uh professor of choral studies in the get uh at Florida State, and pretty much almost every major, not every, but so many major conductors and composers and people who are contributing to the world of just group singing in general, um, but specifically choral music, have gone through his program or been somehow influenced by him. And I can't think of a musician who's uh a black musician um who's done more um for choral music in the last probably 30 years um than what he has uh managed to do from being past president of ACDA for a stint to his published works, to his over in Beulerland, his on and and his work with singing in dialect and all of those things. Um he comes from that church background, but he but he's this brilliant classical musician. And what I love about him is he's never let his gospel side go. He's brought he's carried that over into the academic world. And he's, I think people like him, Dr. Raymond Wise, there are a few others who've kind of given a really sound kind of pedagogy to it so that it's teachable. But at the same time, he's you know, you let him conduct, you know, brums and he's gonna kill it. I mean, he does the same thing, he brings the same passion out in his classical uh approach. I will say, and he's so gracious as well, without he shares his platform. To your question, yes, the London Symphony Orchestra did their very first album, gospel album, I believe it is, and he produced it. I think they were doing, they've been doing a series, he's like a residency, and they were doing it at the Barbican, I think a few other places, and he'd come in annually to do these concerts, and they did a live recording, and he commissioned my piece that I did um uh that I composed called It's Working um with John Stoddard. Uh, and it's the original song that I wrote, and they recorded and released it. So I'm honored to say that the London Symphony Orchestra has recorded one of my pieces, and it is all because of Dr. Andre Thomas. So I love him and appreciate him so much. And they did such a beautiful job, as you can imagine, the London Symphony Orchestra does.

SPEAKER_02 39:58

I need to try and get him on the show, clearly. We need to have that.

SPEAKER_00 40:03

No, no, he you could just let him go, just let him talk. Like his stories, the things that he's experienced. He also spans so many generations. I mean, his mentor really, he really loved Jester Harrison. Um, who he's, you know, if if you don't know him, uh people should really look him up. He was a was a wonderful, one of the kind of the first African-American male um clinicians that was brought in bringing uh the that taught these really large stages of uh white people, a lot of times, um, and brought gospel music. He was also an actor and he was a voice a vocal contractor and did a bunch of work um as well. But he was one of his mentors and and he, Dr. Thomas has taken that and then taken it even further. Um and and and and I think he I think Just would be so proud of him actually if he was allowed to see it. Um so yeah, I I think that is um you have to have him on. He is he is so significant.

SPEAKER_02 40:56

What's uh what's next for Isaac Cates?

SPEAKER_00 41:01

Well, um that's

What’s Next For Isaac Cates

SPEAKER_00 41:03

um a good question. Uh, you know, uh what's next is uh a continuation of what's current for me. Um ironically, my group ordained that I've had, I think we turn, I think we're like 22 years old. I think um our first album turns 20 in November of this year. I cannot believe that it turns 20 years old. Yeah. Um so I think I'm trying to plan something through that, but I don't also want to be held to don't quote me on that. But we're at least going to commemorate it. We're gonna do something special for that. We've already started. We released um my arrangement of the Lord's Prayer that I did on that album. We re-released it with an ensemble that I now lead called Affirmations as well. Affirmations is a really it's not an ensemble, it's a collective of choirs, choir leaders, choir, choral enthusiasts, worship leaders here in Kansas City in my hometown. Um I serve on staff at Church of the Resurrection. Uh it's a United Large United Methodist Church here, and um I it was in my heart to do a collaboration to bring people together because we really love group singing in Kansas City. And so um we started almost four years ago. We've done three uh versions of this concert called Affirmations Now to Worship. Um and it grows every year. The last time we did it was September of last year, and um 230 voices came together and sung, and we record, and you can see the videos of those things out. Well, that'll come back again in 2027. Um so I've already started planning for that. Um so that is next, uh uh uh is is bringing, and then we grow every year, so that'll be huge. Um, so that's one endeavor. Another thing is I composed, I'm a co-composer on this piece called Canon for Racial Reconciliation, I mentioned earlier, um, that marries together the Orthodox uh traditional uh uh a cappella style with liturgical elements, with uh black singing, gospel music, and also music of Eva Jesse, who was a uh a uh she did compose some music as well, but she was conductor of the around the Harlem Renaissance era. She's from Kansas originally, but she had a choir, professional choral group. Um they actually sung at the Marshall and What March on Washington, um, and she was phenomenal. She's the choir that also uh debuted, um, premiered Portuguese and Bess um with Gershwin. And she was a black woman, you don't know her name very much, but it she her contributions are significant. And so we unearthed some of her melodies, our melodies, and we incorporated those in this piece. So we're looking in the next year or two, we were probably looking to record that. Um it is a like a hundred and it's about an hour and twenty minutes. It's a it is a it's the largest piece of it, it's the largest thing musically I've been involved in um to date. Um, and so that'll be something we'll be looking to push in the next year or two.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

Wow, it sounds amazing. Actually, I it's funny you bring up um Porky and Bess, because I I've sung in Porky and Bess. Uh, and that was uh that was it's probably one of my favorite works ever. It is just the most phenomenal piece of music, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 43:44

It's just it is really, you know, it was really controversial at its time, you know, because and and even still, you know what I mean, from not only from the content, but from the way that it is a black opera, you know. I mean, that the I mean it's really technical. I mean, the way it's sty it's sung is very classical. Um, it's meant to be sung with these big classical voices. Um, but then it's it uses it just got idioms that did that hearken to jazz and gospel, and you hear all of that in it.

SPEAKER_02 44:10

Well, that's fine. Why I feel um, you know, humbled. I use that word again. I'm gonna use it again in a minute, but I but I I feel humbled to have have sung in it because I I did it in a concert. Obviously, I would never get to do it as a as a white man. I would never get to do that on stage. So to be able to be part of that music is just an incredible thing. Uh Isaac, thank you so, so much. I I I said right at the beginning I was humbled to have you on the show. I'm now humbled to have spent the last 45 minutes talking with you. It's been absolutely amazing. Thank you so much for watching. Oh man, Russell man, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

Thank you for for thinking of me and and for for uh uh thinking enough of my music and my contributions to have me be a part. And thank you for all that you're doing as well with uh with with your festival and with your choir and your and and choirs and and what you're doing um to to to keep people singing and to to um facilitate conversations that are uh interesting, unique, that are life-giving and and um and and and evoke curiosity. Um and so thank you for what you're doing, man. Thank you for giving a platform. We don't have enough people doing that, and I think that is very special. I've heard you I'd heard your name um and followed some of your work as well from for for some years now, and I I think it's just awesome. And we have some amazing mutual friends who I just adore. So I I think you're doing great things, my friend.

SPEAKER_02 45:21

Thanks so much. That means the world to me. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to the choir director podcast. It's been wonderful having you here today. And if you found today's conversation valuable, please

Final Thanks And Listener Actions

SPEAKER_02 45:34

take a moment to leave us a rating and review. It genuinely helps us reach more choir directors and grow this community together. And don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if you know a fellow director who'd benefit from today's conversation or any of the amazing guests we've had on the show, please share it with them. It means the world to us and it could make a huge difference to them. To stay connected between episodes so you never miss a thing and receive exclusive content. Do join our mailing list. The link is in the show notes. And if you have a question about today's topic or any of the topics that we're covering, perhaps a question to our guest or something you'd love us to explore on a future episode, you can email the studio or leave us a voicemail. Both links are waiting for you in the show notes. Well, thanks again for being part of the Choir Director Podcast. I'm Russell Scott, and until next time, goodbye.