Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Welcome to the Choir Director Podcast, the essential resource for choir directors, conductors, and vocal leaders who want to build stronger choirs, run better rehearsals, and create outstanding musical experiences. Well, on today's show, I'm joined by Herbert Washington, artistic director of the Phoenix Boys Choir, Grammy Award winner, and a man who once sat in the very risers he now conducts from. We're talking about what it takes to lead one of the world's most celebrated boys' choirs, how to build a rehearsal room that actually works for boys, and the remarkable story behind that. A huge welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Hey Russell, thank you for having me. This is great.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Um, why don't you start by introducing yourself? I mean, you you know, uh you you've done some so many amazing things with the organizations you've worked in. It would not do justice for me to just introduce you. I think it would be fantastic to tell the listeners all about the amazing Herbert Washington.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

I'm just gonna say I'm a Renaissance man. I do it all. So uh Herbert Washington, uh artistic director of the Phoenix Boys Choir, that's one hat, um, as well as uh our new two-time Grammy winning affiliated uh choir, and we're really excited about that. Um I have a uh website called the Coral Window that we've been working on for some years now, trying to gather as much of warm-up and technique information from the greats around the world and put it all into one library categorized uh website. Um I'm a clinician, uh lecturer, I do a little bit of everything. So the main main work is to make boys uh great gentlemen in lights of these worlds. So that's what I'm focused on right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

And you do such a such a good job doing that. Now we met a few years ago, just prior to COVID. That

Coming Home To Lead The Choir

SPEAKER_00 2:00

was the first time we met. So that was about 2019, I think it was. Um and uh you had just taken over the boys choir at that point, I think.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Yeah, that was my so my predecessor was retiring Georg Stanglerberger from the Vienna Boys Choir. And I got the call to come in and you know audition for the Phoenix Boys Choir uh artistic director role. And I was so excited because uh that was my home. I'm an alum of the choir. Uh I started when I was, you know, nine and being able to travel the world and do some amazing things. Uh so it was like a coming home, very serendipitous uh party for me. And uh, you know, received the job and I was extremely thrilled. We got off and running. You know, we had a a nice strong program around the 120 mark. Uh, six months in, boom, COVID hit, and we had to pivot like the rest of the world. The amazing thing is that we never stopped one rehearsal. Uh, we we switched to online like the rest uh of everyone else. And um, but what we did is very innovative. We switched to something called car choir, uh, very similar to what you look like now, Russell, with the headsets and uh so the boys, the boys and their families would drive into the parking lot. I would set up an audio engineering uh equipment um and have about 50 microphones and 50 XXLR microphones uh and cables strung out to the cars, and we would be able to watch each other and sing simultaneously, and I would record. We would we would do recordings and be able to rehearse. So it was funny because if you were driving by, you would just see a uh a man in the parking lot conducting cars, and you can't you can't hear a thing, but we know what's going on. You know, I have my headsets, they have their headsets. It was quite an ordeal, but it was the way that we were able to uh benefit the boys and the families by sustaining the Phoenix Boys choir and keeping them singing and engaged and being able to see their friends for the first time in a very long time. Um, and and so that was a very innovative idea.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

And I was just gonna use that word. So innovative. I mean, at the time of COVID, and I know people hate talking about it now because you know, everyone had to get to go online, we all had to adapt, we all had to do things and become innovative. You know, think of ideas of how do we keep everything going, how do we keep the people singing, how do we keep up mental, you know, health and well-being and all of those things that all that you know that singing brings us to together to do. Um, you know, how do we do that in a pandemic? And and of course, different places all over the world had different things going on, and we had a lockdown for the best part of 18 months on and off here in the UK, which was miserable. Um but it but what a fantastic idea and not not just innovative, but but incredible to come up with that idea right right at the start. Right at the start. Did you manage to keep it going for very long?

SPEAKER_01 5:06

Well, we kept it going until Arizona heat started to burn us up. So uh as soon as the summer months around May hit, you've got to switch again. So uh, you know, then we would spread ourselves out inside and indoors, and we said, you know, we have to do what we have to do. But we, you know, we love to sing, the boys love to sing. Uh they needed, they needed it. Uh my son, who is who was seven at the time, was taking his classes online in the building. Now, luckily, he had a whole building where he could just run around in, and dad would attempt to try and work

Pandemic Pivot And The Car Choir

SPEAKER_01 5:40

just like the you know the rest of parents in the world. But what was needed is that he needed to have that, those touch points, those connections. Boys are really aggressive. They love to grab and push and and be competitive and sing, and it was very sad the of the mental state of kids, but especially these young boys who already have a hard time with finding their way, figuring out where they belong in life and and having to deal with, you know, are they masculine enough? Are they fun enough? Are they, you know, social enough? And so uh that you know, choir is a great place for kids to be safe and truly uh feel their self-worth. And I think we did a great job at doing that.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Yeah, and and what what is what is amazing, something you you you mentioned right at the beginning is that you were a boy, you were a you were a boy, a chorister at this very choir. And that must have felt, you know, that that coming home feeling must have felt totally amazing to have got that job. And then so what did it feel like that very first time, sort of standing in front of the choir for the first time where you once sat?

SPEAKER_01 6:45

Yeah, it was, you know, I was a very innocent boy. I never did anything wrong, Russell. I was so quite sure how to take that. Do we take that seriously? I don't know. No, as an educator, um, you know, at first I didn't ever think I was going to be an educator. Um, but it's it's funny how karma comes back to you. I was the boy that was a little Hellion, I think, uh growing up. And I I was uh dealing with a lot as a young boy. And so coming back, uh, you know, especially as being a teacher, all of that trouble that you used to, you know, make comes back on you full, full-fledged, and you have to uh you know pivot. But what's interesting is that I know where the boys are coming from. I I've sat in those same seats, I've heard the very same instructions, uh, and so when the boys try and get away with certain behaviors or you know, they're they're laxadaisical in their energy, or that you know, excellence is always number one. And so I can tell when they're not practicing, as most teachers can. Um, and it was very nerve-wracking to be able to come back, but it was also freeing to know that this is a place that served me really well as a young boy, and this gives me an opportunity to be in that same position. Um, uh, interesting enough that this is our 79th season, and I'm the third artistic director in those 79 years. Wow. And so it's one of these jobs where you come back and you really serve for a very long time, and I hope to do the same thing. I don't know, the maybe the hair is leaving and the grays are starting to come in, but uh it's you know, it's a place where I can see myself and career for for many years to come. And the the years do fly by in these jobs, as we all know. Uh you know, when you're doing great work and it doesn't feel like work, it never feels like work. It it feels like you are always trying to help a new generation become great and see that through through music, through a lens of music. Um, but we're always working on character building and doing great things.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

And that's really inspiring to hear. And it and and working with young people is is all about inspiring others, isn't it? And it's inspiring the next generation. How you mentioned about you know knowing when the kids are not practicing at home, for example. I'm sure any of the any of the kids that might listen to this podcast once they hear that you're on here will be very interested in this uh in this

Getting Boys To Practise

SPEAKER_00 9:15

topic. Um can you give us some some tips to fellow choir directors on how you manage to get kids inspired to practice? Because I, for one, as a parent, know how tricky that that is. Uh even with you know, whether it's singing or it's piano or or you know, instruments, whatever it might be, it's very tricky to keep kids practicing and practicing and practicing. How do you do it? What's the magic solution?

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Well, when someone figures out the magic solution, please write a book and share it with me for that next mow. Um, I I think we're all borrowing, you know, as educators, we're all b always borrowing from someone else. And so the first is to make music accessible. If you want them to practice, um then they have to do some things at home. So it might be keeping them accountable to um write in their self edge. That's that's a homework assignment. You know, we have a lot of things online these days uh that might be part tracks. What I've been doing is just to check in, because the boys know this is coming, is that uh I will put secret messages inside of their part tracks, and then they will have to come and write that secret message down and they stand up one by one and they tell each other what the secret message is, but based upon what they've turned in. It's very apparent also when you see a boy who's mouthing words and doesn't know this simple eight-measure phrase that they did not practice. What's interesting about boys is that they will keep each other accountable, meaning that they're very competitive and they get embarrassed quickly. And so in our world, they have to stand up independently and make the music happen. And when we only meet twice a week and we try to do these amazing things out in the world, the boys have to put in that work. And at home, I know they are fighting the parents. I know that they are saying, No, I don't want to do this, no, I don't want to go to rehearsal, no, I don't want to do X, Y, and Z. But when they get to rehearsal and they see the other boys, especially what starts with a couple of leaders. You know, we have section leaders, and it starts with them when they do the great work, and then they understand that they're gonna have to do this independently. That's when they start to change their tune. That's when they start to uh want to go home and and practice. Um, but it can be overwhelming. So we always start with just a a small, a small homework assignment. Some, you know, I'm not asking them to memorize a whole cradle or anything like that, but to to focus on just a little section so we can keep the needle moving forward. Um But I I like to I I like to have them uh hold them accountable and have them stand and sing. Um, but we're very clear in our world. We try and connect our Phoenix Boys choir life to their school life, to their home life. The same character that they have at school needs to be the same character in other worlds, uh parts of their world. And so when I'm asking them to be uh to be accountable, to be great stewards of this world, to make a great impact, I'm asking them to do the little things at home, uh to do the little things at school, to do the little things at boys choir. Um so when they when they stand up in front and they have to sing, um they get they get sent off to the side. We are very clear about what the expectations are. So you sometimes you'll see only three boys left out of the 25 that are still standing, right? The other boys are over in a in a group huddled up and thinking about what they want to do. And some are there's tears, there's boys that are helping each other, you know, there's boys that are consoling each other. But what happens right after that is that the boys will gather without me. They'll gather themselves in groups, they'll take their music and they'll go off and they will practice. And I'm I'm trying to help them see their self-worth and how much their uh value is to the success of the choir. That it's not like a sports team. I can only I only need about four or five in a sports team, but in a choir, I need everybody, every voice. And uh we always say that every voice counts, and that is so true. Every voice truly counts. And I want the boys to understand that, understand they have to be major contributors in this world to make a greater impact. And each of them can make a uh make a significant impact if they just put in that effort and that work. And we're much stronger together. We're much stronger together than we are uh independent and apart.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

I love I love these things that you're saying here. It's it's it's amazing about how you're character building, you know, how you're really trying not just to hold a choir together making great music, but you're making great musicians and you're making great gentlemen. You're making boys become men and really respectful of the music and respectful of what they're doing and their environment they're working in, then you're not just pulling the kids together and saying, right, we're gonna sing today, here we go, another rehearsal. You know, it's it's fantastic.

Building Culture With Mantras And Habits

SPEAKER_01 14:26

No, though I think the world has changed of choral music um in many different ways. Like the visible aspect has changed where you know there's more formations, there's more choreography, there's more involvement there, right? To keep audiences engaged because social media is such a prevalent thing where you can scroll and you only have five seconds of attention, right? And the same thing that's happening in how we are serving boys and not even just boys, but just youth in general. I I think where previously it was so focused on just make excellent music, just make quality music. But we've always known that that choir is a new family. And what happens in a family, there's many things, right? There's outings, there's working on personal growth, there is working on camaraderie and team building and uh and and cultural awareness and all these many different aspects of choir. What I am interested in these days of moving forward is that yes, focusing on uh excellence and making sure that the product that we put on stage is incredible, which we're always focused on that. But I want to give more time to um building the body, the mind, the voice, the body, the spirit, the soul of these boys. And the way that we're doing that is that we have discussions daily. Every time we meet, we have a gentlemanly discussion. And that might be um how to tie a tie, um, how to deal with today's bully, how to deal with uh a new job interview, focusing on a resume. What does that look like? Focusing on a school interview, um, presentation. Um the newest thing has been, and I think we all do this, we stretch, you know, in the beginning of a rehearsal. I'm actually trying to take it a bit farther because we tour. And what I'm what I'm noticing is that when boys tour for more than three days, the stamina lacks, they get tired, they don't know how to uh organize their bags and iron their shirts and go from hotel to hotel and how to keep things uh engaged and organized. And so we have some alumni who are weightlifters and bodybuilders, and so what I'm trying to do now is every rehearsal have a 10-minute workout session. So the boys are focusing on their fitness. Um we all know that we're we're we're better singers when our bodies feel great and we're confident and we're strong. And so it is so much more than choir is so much more than music. If we have the youth in front of us, then let's take it to the uh to the new levels. Let's see how how much we can push these boys uh and and youth, how much we can push them to be excellent, but how that transfers to their normal life is more important to me than just now making great music on stage. Um and so I want to go beyond what we normally do and build up the character and the personal growth.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

How do you how do you keep this choir together though? I mean, I I don't mean that that that you know everybody's sort of leaving and one and you know, all that sort of stuff, but I mean how do you keep it together in terms of the standard? How do you manage to keep that together? And then when you're recruiting new members, presumably they're auditioned, but they're not going to have this mindset, this amazing mindset that you teach uh and you condition them with to become those great performers and those great those great boys. How do you do that?

SPEAKER_01 18:04

Yeah, well, the first thing walking in the door is that every parent that even thinks about joining the Phoenix Boys choir knows that they're walking into a 79-year legacy, right? Um, that you're walking into a two-time Grammy-winning affiliated organization, that we have CDs, that we have accolades, we sang for four or five presidents. Like we've done so much. Our accolades speak for themselves in terms of just that um that seriousness, that level of intensity when you walk into the building. The the the interesting thing is that when you walk into the building, the first thing you'll the each new boy will be will will happen is that you'll be greeted by other boys. And that is without me. The boys just love to put on, um, I don't want to say it's not a show, but they love to showcase how much they care for other people. And so when a new family comes in, they walk up to the new family, shake their hands, look them in the eyes, introduce themselves to the new boy, and they really are gr taking the new boy and going off in the distance and playing pool and playing foosball and all the little things. And so when a family walks in, they see the camaraderie, but then about five minutes later, the time hits, and boys are grabbing their materials, their folders, pencils, right, getting into their seats, and the warm-up begins. And then it's like, what just happened? These rambunctious boys, these wild young men that were just running around now transform into not necessarily angels. We like to think of them when they sing as angels, but they're so focused. They know that that work is now what's needed. Um, what they what we always do is uh during COVID, we had this exercise where we wanted to create a mantra for the boys to understand so that they can go out into the world and remember this mantra, even if they're a Phoenix Boys choir member or not, right? And so we had this exercise where the boys would give words, you know, professional and respectful, and they would throw out the words. And it was my job, and Mr. White's our uh program's manager, director, uh, it was our job to formulate this sentence. And it says, I am a member of the Phoenix Boys Choir, I am responsible, professional, and a friend to all. I strive to be the best that I can be through my choir. I use my voice to change the world for the better. And we all scream, Who are we? P, B, C. And we've been doing that since COVID. So when when we start our warmups and we're ready to dive in into the work, they get their objectives and what we're working on for the day, and we say the mantra together. And, you know, the boys used to joke around and saying the mantra, and then it became very serious that this is who we are. And we start to talk about what does it mean to be a professional? What does it mean to be a friend to all? And I and I point out the things that they are doing well. I also point out the things that we are not doing so well, the things that we need to improve upon. So when the music starts, it becomes a very serious atmosphere. But I, you know, I think we have a nice balance between focus on kinesthetic movement and uh camaraderie and bonding. But we know that when the work begins, uh, and they probably know this about Mr. Washington, that when I'm in work mode, I'm in work mode. When I'm in fun mode, I'm in fun mode. And we try to uh understand that. So I think a new boy comes in the building and follows suit right away because the the other boys are setting an example uh as soon as. As soon as the rehearsal begins.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

I mean you sound so incredibly proud and passionate about what you do. And I'm sure that goes a such a long way in terms of inspiring the boys and keeping up energy levels because energy levels are quite difficult to keep going and to have the stamina and the concentration for so long, especially for young for young people. And especially from uh from a perspective of these these boys are growing, you know, they're going through adolescence and they're going through changes in their body, in their voices. That must be quite challenging, I think, for an all-boys choir and somebody that has, you know, where there's so much involvement in the choir.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

Yeah, one of the things that you talked about was voice changes, and we all know that that is the the uh plague of every boy who started out as a soprano like me, and then all of a sudden, you know, wake up and and you become a bass, and you're like, where did that what just happened overnight? So um when I started uh seven years ago, there was not a place for a boy who transitioned early. Boys are transitioning voice at age 11, 12 these days. It's super early. I don't know what's in the water in Arizona, but it's happening very early. And what

Navigating Voice Change Without Shame

SPEAKER_01 23:50

was happening is that we have a men's choir, so we go from age seven all the way through adult men. And the boys, when they when I started, there was no place for a boy who would be 11 years old, change voice, and the only place you could go into is into the adult men collegiate ensemble, having to tackle like, you know, high Brahms and Wagner and all these tessaturas that a boy has no business even thinking about. And when I came in, I said I wanted to close the gap. And so what I did is I started a young men's ensemble that was for the unchanged voice starting around seventh grade, sixth grade, all the way through high school. And that changed everything for us. As a matter of fact, that's our largest ensemble right now. Um, and it and it seems that one boys are changing voice quickly, but the boys who've been in the program and then they're able to do that in middle school and high school, they stay together. They stay, they they are like best buddies, best friends. They work really well together, which is why that an ensemble is so strong. But now there's a place where that boy who was in the young men's ensemble, they can now promote right into the adult men's choir and sing for a lifetime. And so that's that's one thing that I'm really proud about is that we have a place where a boy can start as a young, young boy and sing through. What we're finding now is that those boys that are in our advanced youth ensemble, the boys that are between 10 and 14 still unchanged voices, we learn a great deal of music uh throughout the season. We have about 40 concerts, 30 to 40 concerts throughout the season. It's like a basketball team year-round. And then we tour for two to three weeks at a time. It used to be almost a month, but life is too expensive to do that these days, as you know. And when we go on tour, the boys learn all this repertoire, and then there's that one boy that all of a sudden can't sing any of the voice part, right? And now it's like, what do you do? Now that boy can't learn new repertoire or you know, new voice parts on tour, and so we get really into trouble, and we've been trying to navigate that waters. Um, boys are really good about still giving it a shot, even though they can't hit every note. I don't ever want them to mouth words or anything like that. I would never ask them to do that. I would ask them to do the best that they can. And uh at the same time, maybe this piece, can you learn the tenor part for this one song so that you can still fully engage? But we want boys to know that they're not broken, that it's it's a uh a hormonal thing that they cannot do anything about, that it's going to happen to all of us. We're all going to deal with it. And we need to understand the the physiology and the anatomy of the voice and of the body. Because what too often that we hear that our voices are are breaking, we we don't use words like passaggio and transition, which we should be. Because to a boy, saying you are, you know, your voice is breaking or it's cracking or things like that, surprisingly, that has some really detrimental uh side effects to the psyche. And boys are really sensitive. I don't know where this world becomes, they think that boys aren't sensitive, but boys are the most sensitive, sometimes even more so than women. They just don't show it outwardly all the time. It comes in waves. And but internally, boys are listening, they're taking in everything, they're always re-evaluating themselves and trying to reinvent themselves, which is why they do so many ridiculous things that make no sense. They're always trying to fit in, trying to find their way. And I want to use terminology and words and help them truly get the education they need to understand what's happening in their own bodies. But now we have an easier transition. So they're always a major contributor, even with the new voice that they discover. Because as an adult, they'll discover a new voice. As a middle schooler, they'll discover a new voice, and as a boy, they had a new voice. And um, so we we go through that type of education to really help them feel good about what they're about to go through, but they're also seeing the leaders at the next level and hearing their voices and really excited about transitioning. I have boys who are sopranos who keep trying to sing in their tenor bass voice because they hear the the young men's ensemble or the adult men and they're really excited to be there. So they're like, Mr. Washington, look what I can do. And I'm like, no, save that because that's coming no matter what. So enjoy this soprano voice as long as possible. Enjoy that beautiful unchanged voice because when it goes, it goes.

SPEAKER_00 29:07

I think there's a big it it's it a lot of this is psychological for the boys as you as you were talking about. And I I think it's it's uh an area that's that's often overlooked, um, especially with uh even with one-to-one voice coaching. I spend a long time talking with my students when I'm talking, when I'm when I'm chatting with them, because I think there's a there's a massive amount of psychology behind singing, um, no matter what age you are, but in particular as you're going through adolescence out the other side and even into your twenties and late 20s when the voice is still settling. And I think I think there's this this you know the this misunderstanding as well, because girls go through the same kind of thing but in a very different way. And you know, girls don't have these tiny little mousy voices that they had when they were three years old when they're 20. So you're you're going to go through change and you have to adapt uh with the with the repertoire that you're singing. Now, when you're working with with the boys particularly, talk to us a little bit about the rep you're working on. What sort of repertoire are you working on and how does it um how does it link up with their bodies and and psychologically what they're going through uh as young as young men and the challenges that that you face in doing so?

SPEAKER_01 30:19

Yeah, that's a great question. Uh, there's many of those challenges, but there's great reward on the other side of that rainbow. Um we focus on uh masterworks. Um surprising that these boys at 10 years old will you know dive into the the Vierne Mass or uh you know Beethoven or uh Mozart Requiem,

Repertoire Choices And Writing For Boys

SPEAKER_01 30:42

things like that. So by the time they get to college, they have already had some exposure, lots of exposure with an orchestra and with a major work that they had to memorize for 30 minutes. The boys love doing that. Uh that's a part of our classic series. Uh this year we're working on you know Britain's ceremony of carols like the rest of the world, uh, and they're really excited to do that. So the repertoire that I'm usually looking at is something that um that is really going to showcase the purity and the ping of the boy's voice, right? And that's usually sitting up in the the the higher tessator around an uh E flat, F G, and uh some of the boys, of course, they love to compete and see how high they can sing, and they're up in the high A's and high C's and whatnot. Um but it's it's I'm looking for the the that that piece of music that really showcases that part of the range, but allows the dissonance and the the harmonic language to ring true in that space. And so, you know, that could be like a Mendelssohn, Lift Thine Eyes. That, you know, if you travel the world and you have these cathedral-like spaces and a boy sings a cappella uh in that range, that stops the people in their tracks to hear these incredible strong voices. Um and and so what what I've actually done, Russell, is that um we started an initiative here called the New Works Rising Choral Composition Competition. And for the past five years, uh it you know, it started as I was looking for more repertoire for boys' voices. And I couldn't find something that really spoke to boys. Now I know it's out there, but I really wanted some someone to write specifically for boys, and it and especially getting that ring and that ping and that uh that tone that I'm I'm looking for. And so what happened with this competition is that the first year I thought we were gonna get about maybe 10 submissions or whatnot. We ended up with about 95 submissions the very first year. And I have a panel of uh conductors and uh composers from around the world, major names, Andre Thomas, uh, you know, the Susan Labarz of the world, like incredible people that come together, and they take, we dwindle it down to 20, and they take the 20, and they dwindle that down to three. And what's been happening is that there are so many incredible composers uh around the world that I didn't know existed, and the boys have been now working with live composers, and so we'll fly them in and the and the boys will premiere works. We've premiered 22 pieces in the last five years. Wow, and it's and that's on every concert. So now the audience gets a new piece every almost every concert, right? And the boys get to work with these incredible, incredible composers that um we build a relationship, a long-lasting lifetime relationship. And so this music has been ringing true for the boys. They are excited uh about the idea of learning a piece that that's only for them that they're gonna go out into the world. And what's recently happened is that uh I now have a uh the Herbert Washington choral series with Santa Barbara featuring the new works rising pieces. So it's a very symbiotic relationship, giving composers uh exposure to new audiences, but giving these boys that uh that autonomy and that uh idea of pride of working with incredible new new works and uh premieres. So we're one of the very few organizations that I think is doing that, um, you know, having a series and having premiered a ton of works, but we work with the Phoenix Symphony Orchestra, uh, Arizona Ballet, we do uh major collaborations in the Valley that's different from probably other choirs uh around uh where we are. And um I think that's really what sets us apart, and especially having this idea of this Grammy, you know, name connected to us as well. And so the the music I'm looking for is usually sitting um on the staff from F till about G on occasion in A, maybe like one or two A's beautifully, and only one or two boys touching it. And um no lower, no lower than probably uh B below middle C. We do have boys that can sing down to the A. Um, but what's interesting about us is now is that we can expand the range because I do go from seven to adult men's choir. We do have SATB, which is why I'm able to do masterworks and requiems and do that with orchestra and whatnot. And the boys love that more than probably anything. They love they love aggressive texts. Um, one one text that comes to mind of three is uh Elaine Hagenberg's Tiger, uh, which Tiger Tiger Burning Bright, something fast and very expressive with diction. They love that. Uh Dan uh uh I think this would be Dan Force, uh Ban Van Caliban, uh, which is very intense. They love that. Um so I've I've I've noticed that about the boys, but they love these beautifully lyrical phrasing uh of music. And um, like, you know, there's a new piece called I Sail, um by um oh, this is uh by Blake. And and so I've it's always interesting to see what the boys are going to latch on to. And despite how exciting uh uh I introduced the piece, the boys will be very clear in what they like and what they don't like. Um you know, we we they don't seem to always gravitate towards the flowery texts and whatnot, right? They want to express how they feel. They want to have messages that really talk about the things that they were dealing with in a day. Um, we we had a workshop with Jim Papoulis and we created a piece called Unity. And he was wonderful. You know, he talked about what are some of your challenges as boys? What are you facing in the world? And he put that to text with the boys. And so um boys really want to talk about the hardships and how to overcome them, and that's what seems to impact them the most. And in terms of Tessa Torah, we try to stay as high high as possible. Um, and again, sometimes expanding the range of with that SATB Tessatura.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

It's great because they're trying they're trying to express themselves. I think that's that's a really key thing here, and they're trying to find find music that's you know, they're trying to find ways of of getting to it, of it becoming accessible to them, and they that the one that they can associate with, I suppose, um in the in their expression, in how they're feeling as they're as they're growing up. Now you you've clearly made a massive impact on on this choir and on these boys, um, which is which is you know amazing, amazing to hear about. But I suspect it's also changed you a lot in the last seven years. How has it changed you personally? How have you how how has it helped you develop by working with these amazing people?

SPEAKER_01 38:41

You know, that's a great question. Um I I will say this that you know I'm an alum of the choir and I started when I was nine, and my first trip was to Japan, Philippines, and Hawaii. Now, I'm coming from a low socioeconomic uh of substance abuse situation, foster care situation. And boys choir for me at as a boy was literally an escape from what I like to call the hood. Uh I grew up in the projects and you know, try to be in gangs. I know, I know I have this wonderful stature that says professional, but uh growing up, I was a troubled,

How Choir Becomes A Lifeline

SPEAKER_01 39:19

I was a troubled kid. You know, as a foster kid, I was angry. Uh, I fought back on I'm and I when I think about you know how I treated my teachers, uh, I was a very angry, upset kid and didn't know how to express myself. And uh going from the projects and then leaving as a 10-year-old to go around the world, it was culturally eye-opening. I just didn't know that the world was so big and there's so much out there, and that changed the trajectory uh of my life. And it was meeting the people in the boys choir. Like the nurse of the Phoenix Boys Choir became my adoptive mother uh at a very young age. And so she literally changed me from different schools, and um I that's when I met my music teacher, uh David Hine, who went to St. Olaf College, and he introduced me to St. Olaf College, and that's how I start studying music. I actually went for basketball, and but there was the St. Olive choir, and people know about the St. Olive choir, and I just felt that maybe I should try my hand at music, and that's what I've known since a boy. And so what I'm seeing right now is that um the things that are most important to boys and families is discipline and character building and camaraderie. It's not necessarily all the time is that music becomes the center focus. That's how they find us, and that's how the world knows us. But what they don't see in every rehearsal is the product that we are working towards, the character, how many discussions that we have about being a great human being in this world, how many discussions that we have about teamwork and friendship and connecting your world to every other aspect of your life. People don't see that part of the process. And I think that is the most important part of the process because that is what saved me as a young singer. And when I'm watching the boys now, what I'm noticing is that they need a choir more than ever. They need a place to where they can be safe, where they belong, where they can see how valuable they are. And when they get that sense of self-worth and confidence, that's what I'm seeing as success. That's what I'm viewing as okay, you are learning the theory and the sight reading and the ear training, and you are vocally singing better, but you are able to present yourself in a greater way. You're able to articulate what you are thinking in a greater way. The music, the text, we we love great text, and so when we dissect that, the boys are academically focused on those things and then they go off into the world and say, Yes, I've already I've already had a piece that dealt with Ralph Waldo Emerson, and I've already talked about Shakespeare, and I've already learned about that in choir. And now my world and history is starting to come together, and I can be a better academic now. So for me, what I'm really uh, I think the boys are are inspiring as they are learning more about themselves and they are becoming more mentally stable every every rehearsal, every day that we're dissecting things. And I I feel that what I am gaining and learning from them is that adversity is just a word, it is something that we are all going to uh face, and together we're all going to overcome it. Um, when I'm hearing their stories, my story is just my story, but we all have incredible, difficult challenges in life. And when I'm watching these boys overcome some really hardships, uh just maybe like as I did, I'm I'm able to relate, but I'm also inspired to keep pushing them, to keep challenging them, because soon they're going to be off at a job somewhere and deal with real life problems that, you know, that I'm not saying that their reality is not real, which it is for them at that age. But they're about to face bills and face relationships and face all these things that we are touching on in conversation and uniquely as boys, which is totally different from a children's choir where you might have 85% girls and only a smattering of boys, which they may not feel so connected. And so, in this way, we're able to uniquely serve the boy, talk about what it means to be a gentleman in the lights of this world, and then be able to collaborate with the rest of the world and bring our gifts to everyone else. And I think that's special. Um, we also have our sister group, which is the Phoenix Girls Group. Chorus and they meet in the very same building. So they're able to do the same thing uniquely for girls, and then we can collaborate and be strong together. And I think that is a very uh, I don't want to say pioneering model, but it is something that is new to many choirs because it's hard to find boy choirs these days. They're starting to go away, you know, even in Europe, and uh we starting to see that in uh the United States. But there is an important place for boy choirs. Um if we want to really help boys see themselves and to give them the confidence they need, that's where boys choir comes into play. And uh I'm just inspired by them, you know, as they work really hard and they achieve some of the most what seems unobtainable. Um this this whole Grammy uh win was it seemed to come out of the blue. Um you know, we we got a call from Austin Wintory and uh a friend of mine, Ryan Gunderson, who was a part of the New Works Rising Choral Composition competition. Uh he won second place, and uh he was a student at USC. It's it's so funny how this is all relational, but he was at USC, and and I

The Grammy Story And High Standards

SPEAKER_01 45:54

talked to him and I was like, you know, we should work together. And he went off to a conference, and there was a gentleman that he met that was in the film industry and in the video game industry and wanted to uh look for a choir for a Sony project. Well, we got the call because Ryan was connected to Austin, and they Austin came in, uh flew in from California and came in with these cells, these measures. And I have to give credit to the boys because they are 10 years old. Some of them are 10 years old, so they have to take a four-measure phrase, learn it on the fly, then record it on the fly, then go to the next one. And Austin took these cells together and created uh this music uh for Sword of the Sea, which we then later on we had two recording sessions of this, and I was so blown away by the boys being able to sight read this music, produce it, execute it, and and we're talking five-hour sessions. So, you know, imagine as a as you being a 10-year-old boy and trying to focus for five hours, right? And these boys are truly inspiring, and people don't see that part of the hard work. And so when I get to watch them, I'm like, I can do hard things because the boys at that age can do hard things, so I can deal with whatever that's going on in my world, and I'm so excited to watch their progress. And uh when we watched the Grammys and we were uh, you know, against Indiana Jones and Avatar and all of these other incredible um major video games, when sort of the scene was called, the boys were they just erupted and were elated uh about this Grammy connection, this Grammy win for them. And I've never been a part of such a project before, but but that is who the Phoenix Boys Choir is. That's what I've walked into, that's all I've known is that kind of success. And I'm so proud of these gentlemen. And every day they are inspiring to watch their growth.

SPEAKER_00 48:14

And they're very fortunate to have you, Herbert. Um they really are, because you, you know, you're an inspiration yourself, and uh, you know, it's a it's a perfect mix. Uh the understanding, the compassion, the empathy, you know, aside from the musical talent, uh, they're very, very fortunate to have you. And now, if I'm not mistaken, your own son sings with the with the choir as well. So it's going full circle.

SPEAKER_01 48:36

It it it is interesting to see my own child sing with the choir. Uh, right now he's pursuing football. He's you know, he's uh just turned 13 uh two days ago, and so he wants to try his hand at football, which you know, I I just want him to be um an advocate of the arts, and I think he has a great now understanding started when he was five, so he's been with me. The other part is that you know, when dad is a coach, dad is dad at home, dad is a coach everywhere, you know, he I want I want us to have a great relationship. So sometimes we have it's okay to say, all right, we'll let someone else coach you, and I can just be dad at home. So, but he has an incredibly beautiful soprano voice. And so hopefully someday he gets to come back to it. And I think they all do because that's where the journey began, which is why I'm always trying to cap, you know, find boys that are really, really young so they could sing as early as possible, especially here in Arizona where music programs just go away. And, you know, in many around the country, that's the first thing to go away, right? The arts in in schools. And, you know, I we don't understand how that is so important to the the core of the human to be able to express, and that's how we stay out of violence, because when the boy is able to tap into their own empathy uh in others and have empathy for others and and be sympathetic to other plights, that's how we avoid the bullying and the violence and the issues that come up because we just focus on the harmony and how to change someone else's life through positive impact. And so um we need more of that. We need definitely more of that.

SPEAKER_00 50:27

We do. Herbert, it's been such a pleasure talking with you today. Uh, I could spend hours talking with you. I mean, it's it's it's inspiring listening to, and you're clearly inspired by what you do. I use that word a lot in this show, and it's it's it's just been fantastic talking with you, hearing all the amazing work you're doing, and and the wonderful advice and the the tips and uh and experiences you've shared with us today. Thank you so so much for spending the time with me.

SPEAKER_01 50:50

Russell, always a pleasure to talk with you, and congratulations on the podcast. Uh, this is wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 50:55

The fantastic Herbert Washington, all the way from Phoenix, Arizona. And we have so many fantastic guests lined up for the next few weeks and months ahead. And we've

Closing Thanks And How To Connect

SPEAKER_00 51:05

also got some more exclusive content if you've signed up for our mailing list. So stay tuned for all the information about that. And if you'd like to come on the show, I'd love to hear from you. If you've got a great story to tell, or you'd like to come and talk to us about a certain aspect of choral singing or the amazing work that you're doing within your choir, you are very welcome. So please do get in touch. I know our listeners want to hear from such a diverse mix of guests around the world, and we can't wait to hear your stories. Thank you so much for listening to the choir director podcast. It's been wonderful having you here today. And if you found today's conversation valuable, please take a moment to leave us a rating and review. It genuinely helps us reach more choir directors and grow this community together. And don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if you know a fellow director who'd benefit from today's conversation or any of the amazing guests we've had on the show, please share it with them. It means the world to us and it could make a huge difference to them. To stay connected between episodes so you never miss a thing and receive exclusive content, do join our mailing list. The link is in the show notes. And if you have a question about today's topic or any of the topics that we're covering, perhaps a question to our guest or something you'd love us to explore on a future episode, you can email the studio or leave us a voicemail. Both links are waiting for you in the show notes. Well, thanks again for being part of the Choir Director Podcast. I'm Russell Scott, and until next time, goodbye.