Welcome And Format Change

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Welcome to the Choir Director Podcast, the essential resource for choir directors, conductors, and vocal leaders who want to build stronger choirs, run better rehearsals, and create outstanding musical experiences. Well, a very warm welcome back to the Choir Director Podcast with me, Russell Scott. This is episode 27. And on today's show, we're gonna take a little, a little sideways step, a little change in the format. As I had the pleasure of being interviewed by the wonderful Christopher Munz over at Corolosophy recently, and we thought we would share the interview on both sides. Uh both sides of the pond, but also on both of our podcasts. So I have the pleasure of interviewing Christopher Munz, and he had the pleasure of interviewing me, and we shared the platform together, and it was a really fantastic, fantastic conversation, which I thought I'd share with you today. And he started by asking me a very straightforward question.

Why Start A Choir Podcast

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Why did I start the podcast? I guess I guess the reason was that I I went looking for a podcast to listen to. I went looking for something that was very specific. And of course I came I came across you, and that's that was the first thing I found and and the most interesting and the most uh I I suppose it was just the most prolific as well. But I wanted to I wanted to create something was that was very specific for choir directors about choir directors and about their choirs. And I think that I think with a with a network of of people that I've worked with and that that I've that I've come across over the last 25 years that I've been working in this industry as a choir director, um, I just felt that there was something else we could add. There was just something that I I really wanted to find, a little niche, a little gap, and create something that was really usable and really practical with lots of tips and lots of uh new resources for choir directors that perhaps wouldn't normally think to listen to a podcast.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Right? Yeah, and I if that's interesting because I find that um there are certain types of people who just if it's a pot if it's on a podcast, they don't care. Like just by the very nature of what a podcast is and perceptions about podcasts, um, there's a there are certain types of people who will never listen. And so one of the things that I have tried to do with my show since the very beginning is just not care. I I'm just gonna make I'm just gonna make conversations that I think are interesting because I think they're interesting. And if people listen, great. And if they don't, great. And in a lot of ways, that has been uh a winning recipe because if it's and this is where I think it actually directly correlates to being a choir director and how we do our jobs. I choose repertoire that way in a lot of ways too, especially for my adult groups. If like if I'm not interested, like if I can't put this piece of music in front of a choir with authentic engagement and energy from myself, like this piece, oh my goodness, you guys, this, you are gonna love this piece of music. Uh, there's this one spot on page 42, you know, of this you know, 15-minute long song that we're when we finally get to that spot, it's just gonna blow your like if I can't present it with that kind of energy, they're not gonna like it either. Um, you know, and so I think in a lot of ways, podcast uh podcasting is similar. If I was having conversations with people that I find boring uh about topics that I find boring, then the audience will as well. And so when I'm I'm interested with your show, what do you feel like um you when when you're curating an episode? What is it that you're hoping to find specifically?

Authenticity On The Podium

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Well, it's interesting. You used the you used the word authentic, and I think authenticity is everything. Yeah. Um, because I think you have to be able to be yourself. You have to be yourself as a choir director, but you also have to be yourself as a singer. And it's very easy, I think, for people to stand on stage, which is uh what I think uh, you know, if you think about it, choir directors stand on stage at every single rehearsal in front of their choir. And it's very easy to over-prepare and overthink things and try and present something that you think the choir want. So that you you kind of think, well, this is uh this is my rehearsal, I'm gonna present this because this is what I think they want. But actually, it's about really getting involved in the detail and the emotion and getting people to be able to relax. And in you have to relax too. You have to relax to be authentic. And I think it's very easy to you know, if you if you're working with a new group, for example, they have this uh they have they have this thought process of oh, this is somebody important that's standing on the stage in front of me. Standing on the stage, I use that word. But actually, you have to try and uh you have to connect with your singers, right? You have to connect with people. And so in my show, I really try very hard to uh uh make my guests feel as relaxed as possible, as you have today. When I've been talking with with you on your show and you're on my show, we're pretty relaxed, we're pretty cool about this, having a great conversation. And uh it's all about being authentic, it's about being able to relax enough to be honest about what we're talking about. We don't have to impress people by you know doing something in a certain way. If you're if you're gonna be yourself, you'll show your real talent and you'll show it really to the best of your ability.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Yeah, that's really well said, and I agree. Um, I know in podcasting, one of my challenges over the years, I think I've probably had about this is not an exact count, but probably about 275 different guests um over the years. And I would say 25% of them, maybe one out of every four. I really have to make a point to like direct the relaxation, if that makes sense. In other words, like reminding people that like we're just having a conversation. I'm just a person, you're just a person. We are not giving a presentation, a poster session at some national conference here, or this is not, you know, uh, yes, people are gonna listen, but also the reason they listen is because they want to hear the real you. They don't want to hear some curated version of you uh that is sanitized and safe for consumption in a professional setting. That we have conferences for that. We have uh academic classrooms for that. That that already exists. People don't need that. You talked about earlier wanting to carve out a niche. That's essentially why I started this show seven years ago. Is I I felt like in the choir world, we did not have a place for that. We didn't have a place for that um authentic conversation where uh where you can't you don't already know what the person's gonna say ahead of time. When I go to a conference session, I know what's gonna be said. I've been around for a long time, I've been doing this for 25 years. I know that the certain types of things are gonna show up in a poster session at a conference, and I are I'm not gonna be surprised, I'm not gonna be shocked, I'm not gonna be like, oh wow, I've never heard of it that way before. Um, you know, that kind of thing. And so that uh a podcast, when you get people to let let their guard down a little bit, you can actually get some of that, um, some of that authentic conversation, which I think is so crucial and missing.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

It's interesting because uh in my first two or three weeks, and we've we've been doing this now for four or five months, um, and the response has been amazing. And I've you know met some incredible people, you know, yourself included. Uh I've met some incredible people and some very humble people, and I've met people that have have messaged me privately after after um listening to the show and saying what they loved about it was the fact that it didn't feel scripted. We weren't trying to sell anything or promote anything, we were just being very honest and having conversations. And I think that's really important because I think listeners believe in the people they're listening to when they believe it's honest.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, yes. Now

Ads Scripts And Real Talk

SPEAKER_01 8:09

um I think that is so crucially important, and and one of the things that I um has caused me some um, I guess some stress and some conflict over the years through the show is that I uh I do it as a job. So of course I I do promote products, I sell advertisement. Um, that's how I do it, that's how I pay the bills. And and so um that had will cause some people to simply just not listen. Um, one of the things that I do though is that I try to balance that. So that again, I said this before, some people will listen and some people won't, and I don't care. I'm trying to find the people that will. Uh that's that's my my goal. Um, and my I don't need 100%. So what I do, I have a pretty simple formula. For a one-hour podcast, I'm not gonna go over three minutes of ads. Um, like, and so if I'm sold out, I'm sold out. If I don't have an if I don't have any space to sell, I'm not gonna sell any more space. Um, and so that part just to keep a balance there is important. And then I also try to balance it with the other stuff we've been talking about, is that when we do get to the conversations, you're not gonna feel like you are hearing a script. And and sometimes though, I do have to tell the guests that, like I have to remind them. Um, you know, I've I've even had some people who uh will not come on my show simply because they know there's not gonna be a script. It's not safe. In other words, if you don't tell me ahead of time what you're gonna ask me all the way through, I'm not gonna come on. And I that has always been very puzzling for me because I'm like, I don't know what I'm gonna ask you yet because I haven't heard you talk yet. When you say stuff, I will hear it, and then I will, because I'm listening, I will ask you a question and I haven't heard you talk yet, so I don't know what my questions are gonna be. And though that that sometimes is an interesting thing because people are so uh comfortable with the curated conversation sometimes. And there are lots of choir podcasts, especially nowadays, that do they will do the curated conversation. Um, and you'll have the the topics and you see the bullet points ahead of time and you know what the guest is gonna talk about. And to me, that's just another conference session. Like I don't need to go to another conversation.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

It's just it's just dull, isn't it? It's just it's just not interesting, it's not inspiring. I mean, you know, every one of the guests I've had on this show um have been an inspiration to our listeners because they're talking openly and honestly, and I don't give them any guidance of what we're gonna talk about at all. I I don't have a I don't even give a topic to my guests. Um I just invite them on to talk about themselves. And I try very, very uh hard uh to to invite people that I will I know will talk about a certain area or they specialise in a certain area of their of their uh lives, of their music, and then I try and and ask the questions. But we do it as a conversation, and I I think you're absolutely right. I think I think it's you know I I I refused to give uh what questions I was going to ask in the show. For my one of my first guests asked for the questions in advance, and I said, I'm really sorry, but I don't want to do that. I want this to be really open. And they were really, really nervous when they came on the show. Yeah, but that's my job. My job as a presenter, as a host, is to make them feel comfortable, just like you would on radio, just like you would on TV. You you the presenter has the ability to put people at ease.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

Yeah. No, absolutely, absolutely, and it's it's interesting because um what I've what kind of from my perspective of doing this for so long, I find that people are in general, they want to speak freely. Um, but we live in a world of um of nitpicking to the point of purity testing. And it has created a culture of self-censorship, especially in the United States, I would say, with our uh academic folks. So if you live in the academic world, um, there are just certain opinions you have to not only hold, but hold publicly, and you have to hold them by using the right words. It it reminds me of uh of my evangelical Christian upbringing in Kansas, in the United States in the 1980s, that when I was uh the church that I was raised in, not only did you, of course, have to be Christian, that goes without saying, but you had to use the right buzzwords in the right order, in the right situations, or someone would look at you as if you're not part of the team. And and I see that in our environment. It's one, again, one of the one of my founding whys for the Coralosophy podcast is I noticed that choir people were starting to behave like my culty Christian religion that I was raised in. Um, and it makes me uncomfortable. I I don't want to say the thing that I know you want me to say. I want to say what I'm actually thinking and feeling, and then it'll make you feel some kind of way. And so then you'll say what you are actually thinking and feeling. Back to me, it's like to me, that's just how grown-ups behave in real life. And so my goal through podcasting is to try to create a little sliver of real life. Um, the the same conversation that I would have I'm having with you right now, I would be having if you were sitting over here on my couch where I have my in-person guests, um, you know, it wouldn't change, or if we turned off the microphones and went and went down to my whiskey bar and drank some whiskey, it wouldn't change. It'd be the same conversation. It'd be the same conversation I was having with you if I if I were at a conference at the bar or in a conference session afterwards. I would say, what'd you think about that? Well, I agreed with this part. I didn't really agree with that part. I don't think I would say it that way. But, you know, and to me, that's normal and that's okay, and we need more of that. And so I applaud, I applaud you doing what you're doing. Welcome to the conversation. It's an important thing, and I'm glad that there's more people doing it.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

Yeah, and it it's it's wonderful being on your show and and you know, being heard by somebody that has been doing it for so long. You know, I'm sure you've had you've had your highs and your lows and everything in between, because you know, and you have your moments of thinking, why am I doing what am I doing? And I think I think it in this industry, and I as I mentioned when when we uh had had an intro the introduction at the beginning, I've I've I've been in the industry a very long time. So I I've been I've been in music um since I was a kid, professionally, since the age of eight. So uh I'm now in my fifties. So I've been I've been doing this professionally for 45 years in in one way or another, whether it's on stage as a performer, whether it's a singer, whether it's a vocal coach, I now mentor choir directors, I run a very successful festival, the World Voices Festival, as we spoke about earlier. I run a very successful uh choir of 120 people here in here in the UK, and we tour and we record albums and we do concerts, and it's a very exciting life being part of the choral world. Yeah. But I also think that with our vast experience in the industry, although not my my vast experience in presenting a podcast, but in my in in our vast experience in this in this wonderful choral world, I think it's really important that we use our ability, our experience, our knowledge to educate as much as we can, because there are people far less experienced than us, and there's always room to learn for those people that are very experienced. I feel like I'm learning every single day. I'm be you know, I'm sure I'm gonna learn something from you today as well, because we're learning all the time. And that's what's really exciting about this. But the show should never be about us. It's not about us, it's about a conversation, it's about the guest. Uh so I suppose today it is about us because we're each other's guest. But it's it it's about the guest and it's about the discussion and it's about learning from each other. And I think that is why I do what I do because I love what I do with a passion. Um, I love learning, I love discovering, I love creating opportunities. That's my bag. I love creating those opportunities that can change people's lives.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

Um, I've done it many times. I continue to do it because that's what floats my boat. I just love seeing people saying, I've never had an experience like this. You know, you take them onto a world stage somewhere, you take them abroad, you take them to another country, you take them on a f to a festival, and they say, This changed my life. That's the biggest compliment of all. It's far greater than any money could could could pay.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Right. Yeah. Well, that's you know, that's really good. And I uh I agree. One of the things that I um will shout from the rooftops is how much of a how much better of a choir director I am because I do this show. I get I get to do uh professional development every single week. I get to have uh a much more nuanced experience of professional development because I get to have a one-on-one conversation with the person who is an expert on that thing, whatever it is. If I have a vocal pedagogue, voice scientist person on the show, or a neuroscientist who studies how brains learn, or if I have a historian on the show who is uh, you know, specializes in a certain genre of choral music, I don't get to just sit in the audience of the presentation and take notes. I get to ask questions back and forth of that person. Nobody gets to do that. Like I am, I am so I am so fortunate to be able to learn from that. And I think one of the things that makes it cool for the audience is that they um I don't necessarily ask all the questions that each individual audience member would ask, but they get to kind of live vicariously through my ability to ask those questions and my abilities even to because sometimes in a conference we want to raise our hand and say, actually, I don't I don't know if that's right. Can we like can we talk more about that? Um and I get to do that. You know, I get to do that and have an authentic conversation with people. Um, but I learn from them, I get to take the ideas that I think would work really well in my choir, uh, and I get to go try them. And if they work great, I get to keep doing it. And if they don't, I know I'll get more ideas next week. It's a pretty amazing thing.

Recurring Challenges For Directors

SPEAKER_00 18:07

So having having uh spoken with so many choir directors as guests on the show, what what do you think have been the the real challenges that choir directors face over and over and over again? Time and time again, you hear the similar messages coming from people about their own challenges as a choir director.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

So it's that's an interesting question, and I like that. I I think um I would give it two different answers because one would be the the perspective I've gained from having the conversations that I've actually recorded on the show, uh, which is a very different answer than the one I would say from all the direct messages and emails over the years, um, because those are two different things. So usually when directors come on the show, even in our my format of conversational back and forth type of a style of show, most people don't come on because they want to talk about all the things they're not good at. Um, so usually they want to talk about the things that they have done well. And so the challenges don't always come out in those conversations. It's the the here's the thing I did to meet that challenge, to to conquer that challenge. And then in the private messages is where I get all the challenges. Um it would be it would be uh in the uh the questions about a lot of uh so on on Corolosophy, there are a lot of guest interviews, but there's also a lot of uh teaching pedagogy type um presentations that I do. And I go do those around the country and I I work with school districts and those types of things, and I I present those conversations and I get a lot of those challenges through those episodes. So things like um, okay, it's great that uh like I understand the pedagogy that you're trying to to present here. I'm working with these kids, but I only get to see them, you know, twice a week. What what do I do if I only get to see them twice a week? You get to see your kids every day. Um, what what what do I do if I don't have a principal who, uh a headmaster or whatever you call them in your in your various countries, um, who uh who doesn't support the fact that I'm even trying to do this, how do I conquer that problem? Because if I can't conquer that problem, then I'm not gonna be able to do these pedagogical things that you're presenting. And so uh those are the types of questions that and challenges that I hear the most, which are uh, you know, in a podcast, you can kind of present the the ideal world. You can present the if if things in a perfect world are happening well, here's what it might look like, here's how it might function. Uh, but then I I have this challenge that you didn't mention. Let's talk about that. And so I get a lot of those as well. And and I find uh one of the things I've tried to do over the years is get people to come on and talk more about that. But people don't want to because it's something that you know, uh getting people to, I don't well, I don't want to be seen on online criticizing my principal. Uh well, okay, sure. Don't so it's it those things are harder to have conversations about in public. Um, and so it's an interesting dichotomy that I've discovered.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Yeah, it's uh it is interesting. I think I think I always try um in my questions to not ask the obvious. Right. Because it's very easy to have a guest on the show and just ask the same boring questions and what have you done before and where are you going and what are you looking forward to? You know, all of these kind of things. What's your biggest challenge? All of those kind of questions. And I think that that choir directors, depending on the the type of group they're working with, their type of choir, the size of choir, the genre of choir, and even you know what style of choir, where where are they based in the world? How big is their choir? You know, all types of different choirs and and organizations have different ways of working. And I think it's very uh important to understand that uh every choir is unique. Every choir. And I think I I read so much on social media in some of these groups where people, choir directors, are posting uh the same questions over and over and over and over again. And I just think to myself sometimes you just have to look from look within yourself and uh and just just be true to yourself what do you want from your choir how do you want to how do you want to deal with a situation what do you want the end result to be when they ask a question you know you know whether it be about recruitment or retention or membership and and every organization is different so you get lots of people answering questions that it it doesn't really work because it's not directed at them that's why my when I'm mentoring people get the one-to-one you know you I know exactly what they're trying to achieve and understand that and can advise them so I think it's very easy to to sort of get misdirected when you are answering questions you know if I'm if I'm a community choir director and a head of music from a a school asks a question now what I may be able to answer about music. I may be able to answer the question uh about uh I don't know how to deal with a difficult member for example or a behavioral issue but I'm not going to be able to answer about working in a school for example or how your kids might respond to certain things depending on their age. I think it's it's it's it's a really tricky one isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 23:53

No, I know exactly what you mean in fact that's a that's probably a good um kind of launch into a more uh granular version of this conversation because let's take the the one you mentioned of you go onto a Facebook page uh which I always say is the worst place to get uh advice about how to solve a problem for a choir director however um I can't complain too much because it's where I get a lot of my topics I I go on and look for where the pain points are in the profession and I I scour the Facebook pages what is everybody asking about what is causing people stress what is uh you know what are the things that professional development could be a beneficial thing in this area and I go find the guest or do a presentation so I I I speaking out of both sides of my mouth here when I say that that's a terrible way to get the advice but your your point I want to go back and make sure we highlight this is that the answer to some of those questions is going to be vastly different depending on what kind of choir you direct. So the the answer that I give as a school choir director in the United States where I have a a gigantic pool of kids who live in the area of the school and have to go to my school because they live in that area and they're gonna take choir because they get to sign up for it because it happens to happen between their math and their history class and I can walk from here to there and then I can walk from choir to history and I don't really have to get out of the car or doing anything anything is very different than a community organization like you might direct where somebody's got to choose to like to take some portion of their evening to drive across town and have a choir rehearsal. We we we live in different worlds and so the answer to that question of how do I recruit or how do I retain or whatever are two different questions.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Thoughts about that exactly they are they are completely different. You know you you you you as a choir uh you know as if you're working in a school you've already got your membership yep you know you've just got to recruit them you've got to get their interest and inspire them and excite them with the music and what we're doing as a choir. Because I think I think up to about you know certainly in the UK here up to about 20 years ago choirs were not cool. You know the choirs were for uh dare I say I don't like being ageist but choirs were were seen as as churchy things uh for old people nobody sang in choirs. Now in the UK in the world choirs are a really cool thing you know because you have all these amazing a cappella choirs and these you know even these professional groups you know people like Votchus 8 and Swingles who have been around forever you know it it's really cool to be in a choir because it's not just about church music it's about contemporary music it's about pop music it's about gospel music it's about folk music world music you know it classical music it's it's about everything and I think choirs now understand that anything is possible and they are inspired by their choir director to do it. But as you say our audiences are are actually different. Now I um I've run uh I've run choirs in schools I've run choirs in theatre schools and music and drama schools and I've worked with with choirs all over the place from from kids uh you know young kids right up to very old kids in their 70s and 80s are still kids um but my my my choirs I uh my choir next stage choir um we have three locations here in the UK we have about 120 members uh many of them have been in the choir since the choir started 16 years ago um and we always have a turnover of people that's the nature of the beast um but they're

Defining Your Choir Experience

SPEAKER_00 27:25

you know they are paying money to be part of something they're they're they're paying money subscribing to for membership of a choir and it's my job to give them the most outstanding experience I can possibly give them and I am judged on that every single minute of every single rehearsal because they're a paying audience they are a paying membership and I have an enormous respect amount of respect for my membership every person is a person everyone is responsible it's not about numbers it's not about you know it's not like some some choirs out there are more of a community choir we don't class ourselves call ourselves a community choir we are a choir because community choirs here in the UK are incredibly popular and they are very much geared around you turn up and you make music and you sing. And there are some very high standard community choirs out there and there are some that are just social things that you turn up and you have a piece of cake and you have a drink and you have a good laugh and a sing through some music which is great. So my choir is a little bit more serious than that which is why the choir decided as a as a unity to not call themselves a community choir they just wanted to call themselves a choir um because they want they want to learn it's about learning as well as singing it's about performing it's about learning it's about learning to read music you know 80% of the of the choir my choir have learned to read music from being in the choir and and I so I teach we always use we use proper scores proper music we read the music I teach we have online sessions where I'm also teaching them uh different skills of of vocal technique and vocal health and reading music and sight reading music and reading the scores and understanding the geography of the pieces so I'm trying to give them the very very best musical experience I can and that is you know that that is what makes us makes the choir amazing but it's the people that make it amazing. It's not just me I'm I'm providing the offering I'm providing the opportunities to learn I'm providing the opportunities of performing collaborating with other choirs I try and give them everything I can and I give 100% in whatever I do and I'm very proud of that and I'm very proud of each and every person because as I said I make them take responsibility and I make them understand that every single person in the choir makes up the choir. No one can just sit in the back and just you know do a crossword or something or read a book. They've got to actively engage and I give them the best experience for for doing that but that's my group and the group next door that are in a community center perhaps or they're a a a a a school or they're a a drama group will have a completely different experience. And I think it's very important to understand your audience understand your membership in order to be able to recruit new members to be able to retain members members and to give them the experience you know your vision of what you want for them. Would you would you agree that that is the case in all walks of life would you would you completely agree with that or do you do you think that perhaps that's not applicable to everybody?

SPEAKER_01 30:47

Well that's a so interesting I I would say it is applicable to everyone but in different ways which is um not necessarily the answer um but it just that's kind of how I how my brain would process all of that I I but so I think all of that I would agree with all of that what I was thinking about as as you were telling that story about what your choir is like it just it kind of spurred some uh instant comparisons in my world where I'm trying to think about how what you just described um is a little bit different than what I what I do every day you know um so for example uh first I have a question in your in your choir you mentioned how you're they there's something a little bit more than more serious is what you said than a typical community choir and so they decided to drop the word community and just be a choir and then you learn vocal technique you learn how to read music etc is it made very clear to the new members that you are signing up for a thing where you will you're you're not just gonna show up and sing as you sing. We're actually going to learn how to do certain things. Is that made very explicit or do they just show up and and just absorb that through the culture?

SPEAKER_00 31:55

Uh it's very specific um because I make sure that they that when they want to join the choir, if they're interested in joining the choir, they come for a taster session and they sit in on a rehearsal and I give them the music and I run a rehearsal and they get part of it. And then at the end they they come up to me and I I tell them everything. I mean I tell them what is expected I tell them what the what the what the experience will be like and what my vision is for the choir and what we're doing along with all the rules and all that sort of stuff on how to join and all that. But it's made very clear that we are a little more serious than most but we do it with a in a very very accessible and fun way because we are a um we do a we we don't call it an audition we do it we call it a voice review. So I do hear all my all my new members on a one-to-one because I want to hear their voices I want to I give them three tests actually I put them through three tests I check I check they can pitch that's the number one and that's obviously uh it's number one they can pitch secondly excuse me secondly I check that they can hear well and that their hearing is good because my absolute belief is that the listening is much more important than the singing and then thirdly I check that they can pitch against others because in choirs we have to you know we have to sing in harmony and often you could be singing next to somebody that's in a different voice part and you've still got to be able to hold your own. So I test with three different elements so I but I don't ask them to prepare anything I just get and it's very you know relaxed in the way I do it. But we do do check that but we do make it very clear that this is fun. People are doing this for a hobby. This is not their job this is my job but it's not theirs. They're coming to enjoy their evening as you say they come for a couple of hours um some would like to think it's light relief but they come away feeling like they've accomplished something and that they're constantly achieving and constantly developed and there are many people that have come for tasters that are longstanding members of the choir and now some of the best singers in the choir that never sang before they came for their taster. And that's really that's exciting to find those people.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

So that's interesting because it does it does then that confirms my suspicion that we have some very different premises from which we start our choir journeys every day. So um for example even the um the the fact that you choose if they can pitch or they can match pitch I'm assuming that's what you mean by that and then uh hold some kind of a part against another part I don't test for that because I teach them how. Because I get because I get to see them every day Monday through Friday for about 45 minutes and we get to and I also get to separate separate them from age 14 as their voices are changing and developing into a beginner course where you this is where you go because you've never done this before and I get to start at square one. This is what a quarter note is this is what a major third sounds like and we get to practice it until they can do it whether they are a a natural pitch matcher or not. And I get to even develop uh develop controversial opinions like there is no such thing as a person who can't match pitch. There is a person who hasn't had time to develop the musculature with their brain um at you know at the speed that they need in order to match pitch. There are a lot of those people but there's no such thing as people who cannot do it. And so and so that is that's a different framework. And I think in a lot of ways choir directors who listen to shows like both of ours are probably going to come away with all kinds of things where a guest or or the host or whoever says a thing about the right way to do this, this, or this and they grumble that's not right. Well, but the reason that we would have those disagreements is because our frameworks, our starting places are all so different. I get to then take my beginners and teach them for an entire academic year and then move it move them into a next level course where we get to do the next level of difficulty. And then I get to move them from there into an either even third level of difficulty where over the over time I get to cultivate all these skills with young people until they can pick up a piece of music by the time they're in 12th grade and just look at it and hear it happening in their head at, you know, and just sing it fluently and you know do all the things that professional singers can do. It's it's amazing and it's so much fun but in a community environment where I see them for two hours a week I wouldn't be able to do that especially as adults. I would have to start where they are and make it make it enriching and get right to the music making because they would never tolerate um how much time I take with with people to get to that point or else they would stop subscribing and stop driving back.

SPEAKER_00 36:28

Thoughts. And that's really exciting really exciting to see that progress isn't it and in and development in a school with young people it's it it there's you know there's nothing better than seeing development in my opinion. You know I I I know when I've when I when I teach, when I coach and I get somebody that that is at bottom level and they really want to learn and they do something then they you know finally maybe a year later maybe two years maybe longer you know you you've heard that they're on stage somewhere in a in a show somewhere on a concert or they're doing a solo somewhere it's so rewarding to have that journey to to know that that's where they've they've they've started and where they've where they are now and it in fact some of the most exciting uh journeys in in my own choir have been from people that turned up for a taster but couldn't really get through the voice review really struggled and some it's very rare but some people I've had to say look I think you should go and get some lessons and come back and have another go most people I like to try and find a way of it working and like to give them the opportunity to sh to prove to show that in a period of six to eight weeks they can accomplish great things and the most exciting ones have been those people that can barely pitch can't you know can can barely hold a hold a tune and then over a period of six weeks normally is around six weeks you see this massive development and they then are one of the people that are saying look what I've been able to do as a result of being in a choir that's the power of singing in a mass group it's that excitement of being able to get somewhere and do something achieve something you never thought was possible. Yeah you know the the the the the the classic situation is a a wife brings a husband who didn't really want to come to choir and uh and he ends up loving it more than she does and he wants to do solos and he wants to do every project under the sun and she's like oh I might sit out this one you know it takes over because it's a it's an amazing environment isn't it and I think it's an amazing environment whether you're at a school or whether you're whether you're doing this in the community I'm actually uh at the moment I'm MDing a production of Sweeney Todd um at a uh at a an all-girls production um at a girls school and um in their their amazing stunning um theatre that they have at the school and it's very exciting seeing these girls you know firstly sing a a piece that's not written for just for girls that's really exciting to see I mean how they deal with it vocally and how I'm able to try and guide them accordingly to get the character out of the out of the piece but also to see some of the really young ones you know the the the 11 12 year olds singing against the more experienced girls and it's it's a it's a really exciting thing because you can see the journey you can see as they're learning and developing over the weeks and months of of preparation for the production you can see how they're growing as people and that's being part of a group and it's not a choir it's an ensemble of a theatre production but it's the same principle working together small groups listening learning singing together harmonics yeah no I I'm I'm interested too in this kind of discussion about um you know how how different choir environments are are comparable but also different so I'm just gonna ask a question about your environment again.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

And so let's say you were to decide to raise the musical bar for next season in other words you you send out an email that says okay our standard has been this but it's now going to be this because we're gonna really shoot for the moon this next season with the musical quality we're gonna go um you know much more difficult music uh higher expectations of preparation etc and would you say that there would probably be some people in your organization who would say would react negatively to that I think that people like challenge they like to be challenged they like to be pushed and they like to believe that they can achieve greatness and they can achieve more than they thought was possible um and I love that because it means that challenges me to try and make that happen for them.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

And and it's an interesting question because it happened um just over a year ago for us. Okay. We were doing our sort of regular concerts and you say you know we we meet one uh three times a week three different choirs doing all the same music but we meet them on different evenings every week for a couple of hours so some some people I see multiple times a week because they come to multiple rehearsals some people I see once a week so that's where it where it differs as you mentioned but I um we had the opportunity to go and sing uh with a with an orchestra um over in Vancouver um last year singing uh Disney sweets

Raising Standards Without Losing People

SPEAKER_00 41:21

uh so there was uh an orchestra a choir of combined with mine a hundred singers on stage in a big concert hall um stunning stunning concert hall and the choir had never done anything like that you know we've done the little pieces we've done three minute pieces five minute pieces you know a cappella pieces pop music but lots of musicals lots of Broadway stuff show tunes and stuff and um never done something like a Disney suite now Disney suite as I'm sure you're aware you know it's very orchestral um it's very choral traditional choral even though it's not classical but it's got it's got classical entities to it and the standard needed to be really high I mean really high to work with an orchestra choir had had not a huge amount of experience working with with live musicians uh and um and orchestras before and we had uh one of the fastest learning periods ever we had to learn uh 90 minutes of tricky choral music sometimes in eight parts sometimes twelve sometimes sixteen part I mean it was huge huge scores and we had to learn it in the space of four months so we started last January and it had to be done by April when we were going on tour. So I prepared as much resource as possible for the group to learn the music and then put the entire group under the most enormous pressure I could have possibly imagined. Not intentionally but because the bar was set high and I wanted as as close to choral perfection as is possible. It had to be accurate it had to be every single person delivering a hundred percent and it had to be you know impressive really impressive we were going to sing to an audience of 2,000 people it had to be really good. We hadn't worked with this organization before at all. But I made the whole choir learn the music not just those people that were going on tour and because later in the year the group from Vancouver came over to London and we did the same concert here in London at the Royal Academy of Music um with uh with our whole choir. So a a group of them. So we we did an exchange doing the same music I we put a 40 piece orchestra together here and we did the the same concert it was magnificent. The ultimate um the the the the conclusion to all of this was that it was the most incredible concert both sides of the Atlantic however we lost members in the process and the pressure of raising the bar um was too much for some and they lost interest or they hated the pressure they've come away from their jobs they've come away from their home life to have an evening of making music and learning and they've just had this most intense situation of singing this music that was incredibly difficult and didn't have time at home to do some practice and just found it too too difficult. And so we had the probably the lowest retention in the choir's history during that period and our membership uh new membership was lower than ever people came for taster sessions and some left in the in the break. We they just couldn't manage it. And I I was very unapologetic about it because I wanted to raise the bar and I said okay if people don't want the same as we do then this is not the right choir for them right now. But how but do you but don't you find don't you find working with students though um much more challenging in some ways in that respect because although you're seeing them more often if you are working on a piece of music or a production um they surely can just say we don't want to do it and then that's it and there's nothing you can do about it.

SPEAKER_01 44:59

Well so in my school they can't just quit they're committed for the year.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

But what if they quit?

SPEAKER_01 45:06

What if they say I don't want to do it then the then the school would say sorry you're done at the end of the year. Right. There's a grade attached to it. And so that's that's one of the differences uh in the US it's an academic grade it affects their overall academic picture uh to fail a class and so well that's that's incredible. Yep so so that when they take my class it's just like taking a math class they're gonna get a syllabus at the beginning of the year that explains here are the expectations here are the things you do every day in order to earn a grade um and if you're not doing those things here are the consequences to your grade um showing not showing up to the concert is a reduction of certain portion of your grade. So it's treated in the in the very uh it very much it is a class it is a class like any other class. My academic content just happens to be uh music learning to do music um and learning to sing and different aspects of of that um so uh and but I actually want to stick stick with the uh what we were just talking about for a second because I I had a I I had a master plan here because now I want to ask you the flip side of that question in your environment and and there's a reason just stick with me what if you went to your choir and this might have to be a hypothetical because that was a really good example of of a non-hypothetical where you say hey guys uh we I've crunched the numbers we really need to expand our membership and in order to do that we're gonna have to become more inclusive with our uh our singing placements that we do at the beginning I might have to lower the standard for new membership in terms of what they can do musically and we're gonna probably have to start doing easier music um do you think that you would also lose people there what an interesting thought that is um I think most of my choir would trust me they would trust my judgment that that was the right thing for the choir to do they'd like the idea of doing some easier music that they could learn quickly and that everybody could get on board with very quickly and then they'd get bored.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

Yes and I agree and and that's the thing. They would at that point then think this is is not pushing me now. After three or four months we're just doing the same easy music oh yeah we've recruited some new members those members are not at the standard we were when they started and now we're having to lower our standards to then bring more people on board to bring it back up again and we're gonna have to go through that horrible process of trying to get all those members with less ability up to our standard and I think ultimately I could lose some of the best singers in the choir by doing that. The ones who are an interesting idea.

SPEAKER_01 47:54

Yes the ones who are fed by the challenge and and so that the reason I I wanted to frame both sides of that coin for you for you to see how you reacted but also for the audience to think about is that I uh I guess this this would put you in the category or put us in the category of one of my uh many controversial hot takes over the years, which is that I think in the choir world we have become obsessed with an oversimplified and platitude version of what it means to be an inclusive choir. It is very popular in choir world to talk about how inclusive your choir is on Facebook so that you get lots of likes and loves and shares.

Inclusivity Myths And Multiple Choirs

SPEAKER_01 48:30

And then no one actually chooses to in dig into the reality of what diverse groups of humans actually want because the the reality is they don't all want the same thing. And so in a choir program you could say you could frame what I just did as we're going to be more inclusive by allowing more people to be in it regardless of what their musical ability is. And we would let those people in the door and then we would pat ourselves on the back and say we're being inclusive. But meanwhile some other people would leave through the back door and are we being inclusive to them nobody wants to think about that. Like we don't so you're you're not gonna make the perfect choir. And I think that's why I call it a platitude. You're not gonna make a perfectly inclusive environment because some people will want more musical challenge and leave if they don't get it. And some people will will need less musical challenge as a way to get in the door or they'll leave if they don't get that. And then the reality then is to me anyway the obvious answer to this conundrum is that we need lots of different kinds of choirs. We don't need to try to create the perfect choir that no one can criticize we need lots of different choirs that are create different entry points along the spectrum for we need Vaux eight and we need the choir in the community that literally just shows up and yells and no and just has a drink afterwards. We need beer choir all the way to Vaux 8. That that's that's my opinion uh thoughts about that.

SPEAKER_00 50:00

But I I I absolutely agree with that and I I tell I I I tell my tasters when they come that there are all types of choirs in the area and here in the UK we've you know we've got more choirs than we've ever had before it it's in every town you probably have ten different choirs uh some competing with each other for the same people but some you know different types of choirs whether they be female or female or or male voice choirs or or gospel choirs or a cappella choirs there's all different choirs but there are choirs for everybody. But it does beg the question whether it's it's it should be quality over quantity because I know that and I I mean I've got this agreement with you about about this inclusivity thing. Inclusivity doesn't necessarily have to mean inclusivity of all abilities. Inclusivity should agree that that inclusivity should mean that people from all different cultures and ethnic backgrounds and race and religions should be able to join a choir together and we are all inclusive. It doesn't necessarily mean that we all have to be this level high or this level low or in the middle or non-readers or readers or students. It it doesn't have to mean that I I absolutely believe we are an all-inclusive choir. We let anyone join every single every single person is welcome no matter their background no matter where they come from what their beliefs are everyone is welcome. However we we uh are very uh particular in that we say we tell people what the choir is like what's the experience of the choir like what's the expectation what's the standard like but the danger there of course is that when you do get people that have never sung before or can't read music or have never sung in a choir before or have only ever sung in the shower they think they're not good enough to come to a choir like ours but actually when they start doing it they realise very quickly they can and so we probably put some members some potential members we probably put them off of joining um by making it sound really serious and it's only for people that are really good. That's not the case but it will come across that way and if I you know if a list our resume of the things that we've done over the years you know somebody that's never sung before is going to go oh my goodness I couldn't do that like that's I that's way beyond my ability but actually what I love is the people that will try and when they try and realize they can do it and give themselves a chance they don't have to perform in week one they can perform in 12 months time there's no there's no pressure to to suddenly get on stage but take your time to learn and get into the choir and get and take time to get to know people because I think the social side of all choirs no matter shape size or or type I think the social element of of choir is probably more important than anything because you have to gel you have to welcome people and you you and the the the friendships that you make are what helps to retain membership and to to retain the belief in the brand and the vision of the choir.

SPEAKER_01 53:10

Now there's a tension there too. So maybe this this could be our kind of our last little nugget to chew on here because I think in our both of our environments these things are going to be universally true but to different uh different degrees of course there's a difference between working with adults and 14 year olds that that's a very different thing right there. But you just one of the things you just said I think highlights attention for me which is that the the community or the social aspect is so much more important. And the other which I agree with but I there's there's some nuance here I want to dig into so the other day I saw a colleague I won't mention

Community Grows From The Music

SPEAKER_01 53:48

a name of course because I'm not trying to criticize a person just an idea that I saw online which was a session at a conference here in the United States that was going to talk about according to the poster how the most important things that we do in choir are actually the non-musical things that create community. And this session was going to be about how all those other non-musical things go together to create the the the choir and why people would would join it. And I immediately kind of just recoiled because I don't think that that's true at almost any level of choir there because if it were then it would be a social club it if if it didn't have the musical element the element of singing together then there wouldn't be a choir in the first place. And so I kind of recoiled at the like the the the words most important the most important things are the non-musical things. I I disagree I think the most important things are the musical things and then the community actually the the community aspect the social aspect is formed as we create the music together. It's as I breathe next to you and as I trust that when I sing you will sing.

SPEAKER_00 54:56

And when we hear that sound release into the room that we just created our our sense of community builds from that and and it to work it the other way around would be inauthentic thoughts well actually I think perhaps I've I've mis uh misstated what I what I what I meant by that when I when I say that uh that socially is the most important thing I think it is for the member it's not for me um I I don't need everybody to forge friend great friendships I don't need that to happen I don't need them to go out for drinks after choir I don't need them to you know go around around each other's houses or you know go to the the movies together I don't need any of that that's that's I'm all about the music. All I care about is the music. All I care about is creating these opportunities and experiences for my members and for them to learn and get the best experience. For the members though when I talk to them why do you stay in the choir? Because I've made such amazing friendships in the choir and had such and we've shared such great experiences together.

SPEAKER_01 55:57

And see that I agree that I agree with and I think that's true of my students at school too most of them recruiting for me is convincing them that it's going to be a social environment but here's where here's where I think the crucial thing for all choir directors is for me anyway and you're you can say if you don't agree with this but I think without the music being at some level that they perceive the members perceive as quality that social connection becomes very difficult. In other words and I'm I'm an athlete as well I know that when we are winning um it is a whole lot easier for the boys on my team to gel socially because there there isn't constant tension there isn't constant disappointment that would get in the way of those social connections. And of course that's why earlier I framed the dichotomy of what if we push them too hard? And also what if we don't push them enough, we're gonna lose some people and I always see our job as to be the master carrot dangler. We are dang we are dangling a carrot out in front of a horse. And if we push it too far away from the horse, the horse gives up if it's too close to the horse they're just going to gobble it and they're not going to strive to reach the carrot anymore. And and our I think our job of all choir directors school, community church, anywhere is to figure out just how far that carrot should be from the horse because for every group it's different.

SPEAKER_00 57:18

Do you think it's harder though with with kids um particularly at schools because they see each other every day of the week and they're not always going to be best friends with each other. There's always going to be conflict there's always going to be things they don't agree with or you know friends that they've got through the years and other people they just don't like and they don't want to be with and socialize with and they're seeing each other every single day as you say are there other challenges that come with that where against against a choir like mine who see each other once a week twice a week or three times a week only for a couple of hours?

SPEAKER_01 57:54

Oh sure. Yeah absolutely there are social challenges that come about in school choirs that have nothing to do with the choir. They are uh they are dramas that walk in the door from the hallway uh there are um my boyfriend just broke up with me and he's across the room in the tenor section and uh you know that kind of stuff of course I'm sure that does exist in community groups too people meet and and start dating and and then they break up and all that that's not unique uh necessarily but absolutely but I would say that it doesn't change the core premise which is that a lot of uh in my experience I've taught now about 3,000 teenagers um over the course of my career and the the the friendships formed within choir classes in a school uh again because we are doing this musical work together because we are uh it's why it it I mean obviously it's a probably a spurious uh analogy but for the same reason soldiers oftentimes uh create lifelong bonds because they are facing something very scary and very challenging but they're doing it side by side shoulder to shoulder uh sometimes sleeping back to back to keep your heads out of the mud those bonds get formed uh uh as a lifelong bond and I think in a choir we are also facing very vulnerable very challenging very scary things but we're facing it next to a person who uh who does it with us and and I think that uh without facing those musical challenges though I I would contend that those bonds just aren't going to happen no matter how many icebreakers and little uh post-concert meetings you have or how many parties you throw during the course of the year the actual lot lasting bonds that happen with choir singers happen in the breath they happen on the breath they happen in the sharing of the music and without that without that attention to detail and quality that we all face together when we go to a choir um I think we would become just a social club where we know somebody for a year and then never talk to them again.

SPEAKER_00 59:56

Yeah it's true and there's and there's that social thing again you know it's it's it's that fine line isn't it between music and and social um and it's it's all about understanding the personalities of the people as well as a choir director you have to know everybody. So I was saying earlier it's not just you know in my choirs then people are not just numbers everyone is an individual that plays and contributes a part of the overall choir the community of the choir the sound of the choir musically the intelligence of the choir and what makes the brand what makes our brand what it is it's the people and each and every person plays a part and they're equally important. And I think I I I I'm as I'm sure you do and as as all teachers do you have to get to know your students you have to get to know every person. Whether they're paying money to be there or not you have to understand people because at the end of the day they are people and they have lives and they come to choir because they want to be part of that great music making and that great organization.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:03

Yeah that's really well said and and I would only add that you know one of the things I find myself fortunate over the course of my career to work with um a broad spectrum of singers and it sounds like you have as well and you'll so I think you'll identify with this where I get to know what it's like to to give someone their very first ever experience with choir. But I also get to know what it's like to have an 85 year old tenor in my church choir who's been singing longer than I've been alive, who's had all kinds of choir experiences from beginning to amateur or amateur to more uh you know high-level choirs in their lifetime and to see their uh to uh to direct a person whose own voice has gone through seasons of change and decline and growth and etc all the way to professional musicians who when I step in front of them they expect of me a very very high level of musicianship where I I am intimidated to be in front of them because of how good they are and I've gotten to do all of those things. And sometimes I've gotten to do all of those things in one week. Where isn't that amazing?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:06

Isn't that isn't that wonderful though what that's what we love about what we do. Right?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:09

It's that yes and and I think for me that's why I think I have this perspective of um that that we're not gonna thread the needle perfectly with how demanding our choir environment is musically for every singer who's in the room all the time. We should be trying to figure out where that carrot goes like I said before but we shouldn't also beat ourselves up when we when we don't. So for example you shouldn't beat yourself up because you did the Disney thing that caused some people to quit. But at the same time you've got to make choices that you think are best for your group and ultimately we're all going to move through our various choirs trying to make the best decisions that we can for what that musical need and and that social need, how is it going to be balanced? And we're not going to make those decisions perfectly and I'm hoping that people listen to this conversation will at least get that out of it which is that yeah like I'm I've tried these things with my choir I tried to do more icebreakers and I tried to do harder music I've tried to do easier music and it's just never going to serve everyone and I think that's because it's not not possible to serve everyone with everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:11

You can't and it's the old adage you can't please 100% of people 100% of the time it's just not possible. And you try very hard and you you get you get very offended I think as a choir director when you can't please someone but you you and it's just the way it is that you have to accept that I think over the years I've had to realize I'm just not going to please everyone all the time and if ultimately sadly met some members decide to leave the choir as a result there's very little I can do I have to just let them go sometimes it's it's it's a really tricky balance because as you say you know you want to keep everybody together all the time and you want everyone to be happy and feeling the same way you do. It's just not possible. We have to be realistic and we don't always make the best call we do make mistakes we're human too but it's about I it's it's about doing what you feel is right and I I I love the psychology of singing and the love the the psychology of performing and understanding why people do what they do and how they react and why they react in certain ways to different styles of music and that's an that's for another day that's another conversation. But I do think it's funny because there is a lot of synergy between what we do yet we're very different. And that's why it's it's been such a pleasure talking with you today. It's it's I you know it's it's just it's a learning experience no matter who we talk to in life and I and I I'm really grateful uh that you've taken the time to to to you know spend the time talking with me today.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:29

Yes of course no Russell uh same to you thank you for spending this time together and uh I hope people will go check out uh the choir director podcast and of course if your audience wants to come check out mine I think you're right you what you said earlier is right uh there'll be different things for different folks uh available on both shows and there's lots of different kinds of choir podcasts now which has been a really neat thing for me to watch uh over the last seven years this uh this world of choir conversation has really exploded so Russell thank you for for hanging out with me what a great conversation that was and how interesting it was to have a really great conversation with another podcast host.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:08

I hope you did enjoy that very much as much as we did. And until next time, thank you so much for listening to the Choir Director Podcast. It's been wonderful having you here today and if you found today's conversation valuable please take a moment to leave us a rating and review. It genuinely helps us reach more choir directors and grow this community together. And don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode and if you know a fellow director who'd benefit from today's conversation or any of the amazing guests we've had on the show please share it with them. It means the world to us and it could make a huge difference to them. To stay connected between episodes so you never miss a thing and receive exclusive

Closing Thanks And Next Steps

SPEAKER_00 1:05:46

content, do join our mailing list. Link is in the show notes. And if you have a question about today's topic or any of the topics that we're covering perhaps a question to our guest or something you'd love us to explore on a future episode you can email the studio or leave us a voicemail. Both links are waiting for you in the show notes. Well thanks again for being part of the Choir Director podcast I'm Russell Scott and until next time goodbye