Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Welcome to the Choir Director Podcast, the essential resource for choir directors, conductors, and vocal leaders who want to build stronger choirs, run better rehearsals, and create outstanding musical experiences. And a very warm welcome back to the Choir Director Podcast with me, Russell Scott. This is episode 28. And on today's show, I'm joined by special guest Ema Crayan, an Irish singer-songwriter from County Kildare, who, alongside a very successful solo performing career, has developed into a vocal and creativity coach working with artists and groups, including choral programs and organizations such as Sing Island. She's hugely passionate about working with young talent and runs a very successful music school. Now, in this episode, we talk about creativity as a practice, how to help people access their voice when confidence is shaky, and a few rehearsal moves choir directors can use straight away to get more connection and expression. A vocal coach, a choir director, and a hugely successful performer. Please welcome Ema Crayan. Thank you so much for joining me. And what I'm very excited about, just right at the start, is you conduct multiple choirs, you work with your own schools, you do amazing work, and you call yourself a musician. And I love that because most people doing what you do and doing what we do call ourselves choir directors. So tell us all how all this

From Singer To Choir Leader

SPEAKER_00 1:42

began. Give us a little history of your amazing life and what you do, and and why why do you call yourself a musician?

SPEAKER_01 1:52

It's a good question. Uh thanks for having me. It's so nice to be uh on this podcast. I really love it, and I love your guests and I love your work. So it's an honor. So thanks for having me. Thank you. Um yeah, I've been working with choirs since 2005, so just 20 years as a director. Uh, and I was in choirs when I was a child and a teen. And I think that choirs for me have been a way of dealing with life, and then I think that I help other people deal with life through choirs, and it's kind of come full circle in this way. And for me, being a musician is really about being um a community connector and a person who's involved with people and creativity, and it happens to be a lot through choirs, but really it's personal development work through music, and yeah, I'm just a musician. Yeah, I like that description.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

So, how did how did how did your music career begin?

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Um my music career began pretty late. I was in college as a mature student uh when I was 25, and I joined a gospel choir, and it was my dream to be in a gospel choir, and I auditioned and joined this gospel choir. And the director, this guy, Mick Faye, uh great Irish uh director, he saw something in me and he was leaving and he asked me to take over. And I couldn't believe somebody had asked me to take over a choir because I I knew that like I was good with people and and good with singing to a certain level, but I never believed I could be a choir director. And I was doing a music degree at the time with the view of becoming a primary school teacher. Um, but he saw something in me and he gave me some support. And and for the next year that I was in college on a Wednesday, when the same day we had choir rehearsals, I did nothing apart from freak out for the entire day looking over all my notes and trying to learn everything inside out. And you know, that's 21 years ago now, and yeah, it's just experience um training and um trying to really build community through music that has changed my experience requires. And also I have a sister who's a musical genius who you've met before, Russell, my lovely sister Claire, and she's given me an awful lot of support. And when we opened our music school together, the joke was I did the people, she did the music. And then since the school has opened over the years, those our skills, our skill sets have matched an awful lot more, and we both do both. So um I think one of the reasons I'm good with choirs is because I've learned from from scratch myself. Um music wasn't something that came naturally to me the way it does to everybody. So I've I've really yeah, I've really worked very hard at becoming a good choir director.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

So did you did you have a lot of music in your childhood? And you know, there was something clearly inside you that drove you in this direction.

Music, Exclusion And Finding Belonging

SPEAKER_00 4:56

What was it? What was the key, yeah, could your key turning point?

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Well, I I lived in a nursing home. So that was the key. You know, my parents built a nursing home and it opened when I was six, and my life became very much centered around singing for people, uh, singing at funerals, uh, singing at parties, singing at Christmas, singing for birthdays, entertaining um entertaining people. And my parents were very into Irish traditional music, Irish folk music, um, not so much kind of pop music or world music or um rock music, but we kind of grew up singing a lot. I also was in the church choir, and so we did a lot of singing in the nursing home and in the school choirs and the church choir. So I was around it a lot and we had piano lessons. We were very lucky we had piano lessons. I never practiced, and still to this day, I'm not an amazing piano player, but we were very privileged to get the classes. And I think then for me, I personally experienced an awful lot of um exclusion and difficulties in my teenage years. It wasn't an easy time for me. Um, and that experience of exclusion uh and difficulty. And I had my amazing son when I was a teenager, and those experiences really shaped my future adult career and what I want to do with community and with people. So inclusion is extremely important to me, and it's one of the reasons the school, our music school, it's called Speak Up, Sing Out, and it's really about helping people to find a voice, uh, to feel connected, to uh get access to the arts, no matter what their experience is, to uh get engaged with meeting people, with singing, with experiencing all the things that everybody on your podcast talks about, regardless of their experience, and that there's a place for everybody within creativity and within music. And uh I think that my experience is uh I'm very grateful for them, uh the difficult ones, because you know, they've really served me in these years.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

It's interesting you said about about those teenage years. I remember through my teenage years and even going into my twenties, feeling like I was changing at times. I felt like there were actually like junctions. They were like traffic lights you would stop at and you'd suddenly think to yourself, I feel like I'm changing. Something's happening, I'm changing, I'm feeling different. I'm going through an another transition towards my adulthood. And I remember th feeling that music was the thing that carried me through it. It was like the transient, it was, it was, it was, it would get me through everything. Different pieces of music would get me through through different challenges in

Songs That Carry Us Through Life

SPEAKER_00 7:35

life, different traumas, different experiences. Do you think that and and you've clearly from what you were saying, you've clearly gone through similar kinds of feelings through those teenage years. Do you think a lot of a lot of teenagers feel the same way? Do you, in in your experience working with young people, do they have these challenges that music really helps them to get through these changes?

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Oh, absolutely, 100%. We have an incredible youth choir that's testament to that. And having worked with children and youth choirs for the past 10 years, you really see, and I suppose teens are an awful lot more transient. You know, they come and they go, and you meet them years later, and they talk about the experience of music and being in choirs and what it's done for them. You you you made me think of something there when you said that. Uh, a song that has followed me my whole life is Lean on Me. And it was, I remember singing it in uh school, uh in secondary school, and I was pregnant at the time in school, and it was a really big deal that this teacher had pushed me to sing this song. And um, I've sang that song. I sang it at my father's funeral, I sing it in gospel choir, I sing it when I do work in Africa. I um recently have added it to my set of my own music because I just want to really honor it as a song. And I do think that pieces of music uh can, and it's interesting to think about a song and how you felt when you sang it when I was 16, how I felt when I sang it when I was in my 20s. It was the song that I auditioned with to get into that first ever gospel choir that I sang in. How I felt when I sang it on a stage there at a festival during the summer. It's it's really, really interesting. Do you have a song that you can think of for you?

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Oh, it's interesting being being asked a question. I wasn't ready for a question. Um, goodness me. Um I don't think I can answer that on the spot. I don't think there's a single song, but there are songs that remind me of certain periods in my life, and every time I hear it, uh there was a song. So here's here's a thing. So there was this song by um Natalie Cole. That was Natkin Cole's granddaughter, I think it was, and it came out in the I suppose it must have been must have been, I don't know, late 80s, I suppose, maybe. Um called Miss You Like Crazy. And uh it's a beautiful ballad, very cheesy if you listen back to it now, but it was it was one of those songs that every time I had problems with a girlfriend, I would play it, and it would just get me through the moment. I don't know why. I I you know I I had I had mad crushes on various girls over over the years through my teenage and and into my twenties, and I just always remember playing that song, and it would always get me through it because it would just get me really emotional. Um, and now I listen to it and I think, yeah, it's a nice song, and it's yeah, it's quite cheesy now if you listen back to it. But it just takes me back to that moment. But I can remember, you see, I I remember there there have been lots of major classical works that have got me through different times, not just pop music. I I I I love pop music, I love musicals, which I very much specialise in as a vocal coach, but I I have you know classical pieces of music that got me through periods, and I can remember feeling at a very low point, I suppose, where I felt like I was changing and my career was just taking off and I was struggling a little bit financially, and I remember standing on Waterloo Bridge in London, looking across the Thames at St. Paul's Cathedral, and I just remember standing there and it was quiet, and I had just come out of a concert at the Royal Festival Hall. Can't remember what the piece was exactly, but I I just remember having a moment of I don't know why I can still remember how it made me feel. And I think it's that that I'm when I talk about a certain piece of music or a certain experience and a certain nostalgia to the music that takes you back to those moments of challenge, of trauma, of difficulty, and you really feel that it was that moment, that music that got you through that period. And I think it it it it still does to this day. I think when you've when you go through something difficult even in adulthood, for me music is what gets me through because I can take myself off and I can stick some headphones on, or I can stick sit in my studio, sit in the car and play a song, and sometimes it can bring you to tears, but it helps you move on in many ways. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Yeah, and I think that like for choirs, that's something I always try and say to choirs when they're performing. It's like your job in this moment is you've done the work, you know, you've put in the time, and your job in this moment is to connect with the song and connect with the audience and just sing from that place. Because I think, especially these days in in the music industry, because I'm also uh in the music industry and it's so challenging mentally, and we get caught up in this idea that there's somewhere to get to, but what you're talking about is the place that there is to get to. It's to bring your listener to that place and for you as a performer to be in that place, and that's it. There's nowhere else to get to. And the illusion is that when that's over, you have to watch back the video and critique and see what people thought, and then you know, do better the next time and give yourself a hard time or judge how you looked, or whatever. And and really that that's an illusion. There's just nowhere to get to, apart from that place where the audience are hearing and feeling and connecting, and you're singing and feeling and connecting, and as a choir, you're feeling and connecting with each other and your director, and we're just all in that moment of being present with connection to music, so that we can have that thing you just described.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

And is it a ma isn't it amazing that for for some people it is the music, it is the tune, it is it is the harmonies, it's the orchestration, it's it's it's the feeling of the music. And for some people, it'll be the words that are so poignant at that moment that will have the effect. Um it's rarely a combination, actually. It's really normally the words you're hearing or the sound that it's making you feel like. And for me, as a singer, I'm sure you'll you'll you feel you you'll be the same, is that you s for me, I can sometimes sit at the piano and I can pull up a song even that I've never never sung in my life. It could be a brand new song, I might not even know the song, and I can start playing it on the piano and I start singing it, I sight read the song, I sing the words, and I'm singing the words, not the tune. Because it's the words that I connect with first to be able to understand the music. When we don't have words, we are listening in a very different way.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

Yeah, we're at a feeling. Yeah, it's why we don't need to know the language, right, to be moved to tears by something.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

Absolutely.

Helping A Choir Connect And Perform

SPEAKER_00 14:42

So when you're conducting, when you're conducting choirs, how do

Teaching New Music With Clear Intent

SPEAKER_00 14:47

you approach music? How do you actually approach it? So we we're talking about the tune, we're talking about the harmonics, we're talking about the words, we're talking about the feeling, the emotion. How do you approach brand new music when you're presenting it to your choir? How do you get them engaged?

SPEAKER_01 15:02

Absolutely brand new.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Yeah. So I try and I try and send stuff in advance. Um I uh we do a lot of dream development in our school where we try and allow our choirs to develop their own personalities and see what that personality is, and then allow the repertoire for that choir to come from the personality of that choir, of the standard that they're at, of what kind of music that they like. We we also give suggestions for sure, but we try and take their suggestions and find arrangements, or we we do mostly in-house arrangements. Actually, my sister Claire is an incredible arranger. So we we arrange for that choir in mind. We um so a lot of the time the music that we're presenting it has come from that choir, and they're very excited because they know it's a suggestion from them. They've got their songbook for the year at the start, like which is what I'm doing at the moment, is just songbooks for uh too many choirs to mention. It's embarrassing. Um so we try and do different repertoire for all of our choirs as well, um, apart from we have some sibling groups. But yeah, so people are are generally excited because uh they know it's it's gonna suit their personality, and they they've generally gotten to listen to it in advance and they have an idea and uh or they're they're trusting that we've picked something that is gonna work for them. So we try and get them to listen beforehand. Um, and then we try and look at the lyrics and see what is it about and why are we doing it for this choir? What's our reason? Is it part of a show? Is it part of a bigger reason? Is it for sometimes we've started to do a little bit of kind of friendly competition kind of fashions and things like that? Um, what what is the aim for the piece? What's what's the feeling that we want to get from it? What are we doing it for? Um, and then start to break it down. Like generally, we have everybody looking at the melody and understanding the melody and understanding who who we try and vary who does the harmony in every song that we do. We try and mix it up, uh, who who got what part, and we have a bit of fun with that, and and then just start learning it bit by bit, breaking it down. And I always try and make sure that whatever we're doing in a rehearsal is manageable within that rehearsal and that we meet what we're so instead of just going in to be like, we'll see how much of it we get done, it's like this is exactly what we're gonna do within this time frame, and that's we're going as far as here, and then we'll come back to it. So try and be as clear as you can about what we're doing and why.

Growing A Music School Without Burnout

SPEAKER_00 17:25

What have you what have been your greatest challenges building your brand? Because you have a brand. I mean, you you know, you're well known in Ireland, and you you have a school, you have many choirs. What have been your biggest challenges in terms of expansion and control and being able to grow?

SPEAKER_01 18:15

That's such a good question. And it was great. Um, we I did some coaching with you a few years ago with pre-COVID, and it was an amazing time uh for us. I'm sure you have worked with so many people you probably don't even remember, but yes, very much so. You know, I think what's what can be challenging about like a pair of sisters who decide to open a music school who have a love for people and music is that we're not business people, you know, and um it it took a long time for us to understand value and understand expansion, understand what does it mean if we want to we want to give this to so many people, but we only have so much of us and we're already exhausted and we're in your year two or year three. So since that time, we've really learned a lot, like about kind of business, but also how to most importantly, how to get the right staff and the right people. And what we found, Russell, is that our all of our staff have come through our choirs. They've they've been they've been through our they understand, and any staff that we've ever had who weren't part of our organization or weren't part haven't come through it in some way, they didn't work out for one reason or another. Because uh you have to kind of come up through it's called speak up sing out, but we call it SUSO for sure. And you have to come up through SUSO to really get it, to get what we're doing, to get the model of personal development through music, of um that music education with a difference that really everybody is allowed in, uh regardless of singing experience, regarding of regardless of tuning issues, we don't care. We we we know how to work with it, we know how to fix it. Um, regardless of you know, anxiety, regardless of any sort of difficulties people might have, everybody's welcome. So finding the right staff, and now we're in year starting year 12, and we have an incredible team of staff. We've got 17 choirs, and we've got an incredible team of staff. My own son is is starting this year with his own choirs after doing training the last couple of years. Um, and yeah, it's just amazing. Like it's getting the right people, getting the right staff, getting the right systems in place, and you know, the biggest problem with expansion is there's not enough of us. Like we could we could do this all over the country if there was more of us, but it's also so special we don't want to do that, you know. We wanna we want to grow it at a at a rate that feels realistic and authentic and genuine to what we're doing, you know.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

And it it it's interesting because I I know a lot of choirs who have tried to expand who either struggle with finding leaders or finding choir members. They're the two challenges normally. It's normally it's it's one or the other, it's rarely both. You know, they somebody will normally really struggle, they've got all these all this interest of starting a choir in another town or city, and they just can't find someone talented enough that really understands the brand to lead it. Or the other way is you know, you've got all these people out there, but there's no one joining the choirs because there are certainly here in England, there are there are hundreds of choirs in every every city. I mean, there there's literally everywhere you go, there are multiple choirs everywhere. Competition is rife. It's never been like this ever. Um, because everyone felt that they wanted to join a choir, they wanted to sing, so more choirs were being were being formed. Some some from uh inexperienced people that just wanted to sing and create a group of you know for well-being, and some some you know, very talented, experienced choir directors that wanted to start up of their own rather than working for someone else. Do you find that do you find the competition is is difficult? Do you find recruitment of of new members difficult? How do you how do you recruit? How do you find new members? What's your magic?

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Like we honestly we could we could we could open we could open uh

Retention That Respects Real Life

SPEAKER_01 22:05

a duplicate of every choir that we have and it would be full. Like it's it's incredible the level of support that we have. But I think it's because uh I what is it because? Such a good question. I actually I would have to think about that because I suppose it's hard to see it from from the inside, but we're just really we're we're we're really lucky, we're really well, well supported, we do really good work. Um we're very transparent, we're very community orientated, we do a lot of charity work, we do a lot of uh personal development work, uh, and it just has a good, really good reputation. And we have waiting lists for pretty much all of our choirs, and we can't give places. Um that sounds like I'm boasting. I don't mean it like that. I just mean there is so much. Maybe maybe in Ireland it's slightly different than the UK as well. Maybe there's there's less demand um uh in the UK than there is here. I don't know, but yeah, we're we're just really lucky. I think there's I think there's a great I think there's great demand.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

I think I think there's I think there's you know, lots of people want to be singing, and they want to be singing with a group that they feel welcome, they want to sing where there is great music variety, they want to sing where there's great opportunity. Um, and I think a lot of people now move choirs, they go from one to the next to the next as they try different things out because there's so many. Now I I have a pretty good um retention in my in my choirs. Um I always try to deliver at a very, very high standard and a high level of service and our and a high level of musicality. Um that doesn't mean we you know we keep everybody all the time. There's always a turnover in every single choir anywhere. Uh it's the nate it's the nature of of it's the nature of the beast. Um but I I think that a lot of choirs that I know struggle to recruit new members because there are so many choirs now. Do you have any tips for those people of how how do you I mean how do you recruit new members? How do you how do you fresh, you know, fresh approach? Well, you know, we're gonna start a new choir today. How do we recruit members? You know, we do posters, we do flyers, you do advertising online, you you know, might contact the local newspaper or radio. Do you have any what what works for you that that works really, really well that that perhaps some of our listeners would be interested in about?

SPEAKER_01 24:28

I think one thing around retention for us is we have a policy that we introduced called the Life Happens policy, and somebody can invoke it at any time to pause their membership without and it's no questions asked. And you know, we sent it out as a big document about like you know, just understanding how difficult life is and how many challenges there are at the moment and how many things happen with, you know, especially maybe the age that a lot of our demographic might be. Sometimes people might have elderly parents or they might have young people in college, or you know, there's a lot of a lot of things going on for people. So we have this policy called Life Happens, and you just send a message to say, Life happen, can I have the life happens policy? And we don't ask any questions, we just pause everything and you're welcome back whenever you're well, whenever. And it works, nobody ever abuses it. People, it works so well. And people, I think, feel really like because I think sometimes the reason people leave choirs is because they've got stuff going on, they don't make a couple of rehearsals and they feel like they can't come back, they're embarrassed, they don't want to explain what's gone on, they don't want to, you know. So we we find that that policy works really, really, really well. Um, and we also have an open policy for once you've been a member, you're you're welcome back without uh skip without having to go back to the waiting list um as much as is possible. Um and again, people never abuse that. It might be just that somebody had to take six months out because of a bereavement or something, and she's like, yeah, come come back. So I think that those kind of um I think open communication about mental health and being really honest about mental health and what it's like for people in the world, for a lot of people going through a lot of things, um, is a massive part of our retention. Um I think that really is people don't ever feel like they have to leave and people feel like they can tell us anything and they know that it's confidential, they know that it's without any judgment, and they know that they come back. And we also say that to all of our choir members so that if somebody's been missing and they they appear beside you, you don't turn around and say, Well, you've been where have you been? You just say, Oh, hey, welcome back. And it's like an unsaid thing that we don't, yeah. So I think that that's a massive thing about our retention rates. Um and then I mean word of mouth and and bring a friend, and like word of mouth is always our best. We don't actually do any advertising really, where it's just mainly word of mouth, and yeah, that's what works very well for us. It's not nothing new. I'm sorry. But I think I just had a man.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Well, I think what what what works for some doesn't work for others, and what doesn't work for others works for some. I think it's you know, and I think I think things change. And I th I think also that different choirs operate in different ways, and I think the appeal, the attraction is is different, you know, depending on the genre of music or how often you perform or where or what sort of performances and the demographic and all of those? There's so many factors. Now, as an as a musician, I wanted to ask you this uh earlier actually, and we got sidetracked a little bit, but as a musician,

Choirs, Original Music And Big Concert Moments

SPEAKER_00 27:25

um how do you feel your own musicality, your own sound, your own feelings, your own um style of singing has had a knock-on effect on the choirs that you run?

SPEAKER_01 27:43

Yeah, it's massive. Like a lot of a lot of my choirs have been involved in my music. I did a tour in 2024 called the Grom Moore Tour, which is Irish for big love, which is just the way I've been signing things for my whole adult life, and uh it felt like a great name for a tour. Um and I worked with choirs all around the country, amateur choirs. Uh the only rules were that they had to be non-auditioned, non-professional amateur choirs who, you know, want bigger experiences. And so then I went to their town and like worked with them, gave them my music. My music is so suited for for choirs, it's all most of it has been arranged for choir choir parts. So I went and worked with them and taught them my music, and then we did a show where they did a support in a really nice venue with really good sound, you know, filming, all of that kind of stuff where you kind of get to level up as a choir if you're an amateur choir and you haven't had those kind of experiences before. And then I would do a concert and then they would join me for six up to six songs in the finale. And so, yeah, my my music is really adaptable for choirs and uh it is often written with choirs in mind, even if I don't mean to do it. It's just you know, when you've been arranging for years and working with choirs for years, you you don't you don't even know that you're doing it, you just happen to you hear it and you're like, Oh yeah, that would be great with a choir. Everything would be great with a choir. Um, so yeah, I I I got to do last year, I got to do a show in the National Concert Hall in Dublin with um uh it's a big beautiful venue in Dublin, uh gorgeous concert hall, and there was uh 500 uh choir singers uh who were all the choirs from the tour, who were all like after it was over, they were like, please can we do it again? And so the concert hall got in touch and we did it there with 500 choir singers. It was a like a life-changing experience. Um, and I also got to bring, we fundraised about 10,000 euros and brought three young Rwandan musicians uh over their first time getting a passport or visas, or these young people that I've worked with in the other part of my life in the development work that I do, and they came and they were part of that concert. And to see those three worlds colliding like that with my own music, uh, all this choir work um and my work, my development work coming together in that night is uh was a night I will never forget. It was an absolute dream come true. It was uh so so beautiful to hear, and and all the audience knew all the songs too. So there was like you know, 1300 people singing these songs with these beautiful young people from Rwanda, and oh, it was an incredible, life-changing night.

SPEAKER_00 30:18

Those big moments are are extraordinary, there's no question about it. Well, that's a nice way to segue on to this work you do in development and in Africa in particular. Tell us a little bit more about that.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

Yeah, I work for a charity called Beyond Stigma, and we work with

Music For Development Work In Africa

SPEAKER_01 30:36

young people living with HIV mostly, although we're starting to work in in lots of different areas, uh, not just in HIV, but uh the last few years that's what where it has been. And um we we work with young people age 16 to 24 most often, and I'm the creative director of the program, so I write the music and uh also work with pre-established music and short songs and local folk music in the areas that we go to. And we teach a program. Um we teach young people how to become music facilitators. Uh sorry, we teach an entire program. And my job is to work with the young people who show musical uh talent and train them how to be leaders in their communities to use music uh as a helping uh method while we're working on on this program. It's called Waka Kosha, uh, which means you're worth it in Shona. It originated in Zimbabwe, and um yeah, it's about your thinking and what you believe. So it's questioning, it's uh inquiry-based stress reduction. It's the work of an American woman called Byron Katie that's been uh redeveloped uh for this program. And we use music as a way of helping young people to process the emotion that they're going through. We do songwriting, we do singing, we do chanting, we put together a choir, we write songs, we record songs, um, and then we find the young people who show a lot of musical promise and give them as much training as we can so that they can work in their communities doing the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 32:03

Wow. What made you what made you what made you want to do that? I mean, it's it's extraordinary, it's inspiring, it's wonderful. I mean, there's you know so many superlatives we could use, but what what made you want to do it? What was it that drove you to do it?

SPEAKER_01 32:19

Um you know, I was introduced to it by my best friend, uh Nadine, Dr. Nadine versus France. Um it's her work. And I had I had been training in this work of Byron Casey uh since about 2013-2014. It's a form of dealing with uh personal development, dealing with stress, dealing with thinking. And it was that was this is her work. And so when I seen about it, I was like, that sounds so incredible, it sounds so amazing. I'd love to get involved and can I bring my music in any way? And then it just went from there because all of the communities that we work with, the level of musicianship is like through the through the roof. Like you've never met musicians like these young people. That's just absolutely incredible. So it was a joy. I've learned so much from them. And um, I think anybody who's ever worked in any sort of development work would agree that it's uh very life-changing and and humbling. So in some ways, it's very selfish that I get to do that a few times a year. It's it's yeah, it's really, it's really, really amazing. My son came with me uh two years ago, and uh we were coming home on the plane, and he was just like the whole time he was just like, What? I was like, Yeah. And he was like, What? Because it's so incredible to get a new view on the world, a different uh frame of reference when you live in the west and to see, you know, yeah, it's very life-changing.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

Very grounding, I'm sure. Very grounding.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

You run a festival. Uh I do. Tell me, tell me about the festival.

Dare To Sing Festival And Workshop Mix

SPEAKER_01 33:44

Yeah, it's called Dare to Sing because the the county that we live in is called Kildare. So it's called Dare to Sing. And it was originally for people from Kildare, but now it's for anybody. Um, and it's also just Dare to Sing, like come and hang out for a weekend and sing. And it's kind of in-house, it's not really advertised because we've so many choirs that it books out within our own choirs. We we can only we've only got the capacity for kind of up to 200 people. Um, and it's just a beautiful weekend of workshops. Um, it's kind of based on a model that uh an organization in Ireland called Gospel Rising did. It works really well where you've got kind of you get to do one specialist workshop and two bigger workshops. And we try and bring over um get some international facilitators. We have some colleagues of yours, so we've had uh some amazing uh facilitators from the UK. Uh this year we have uh Craig, your ambassador, Craig Lees, and we have Tim Uffendale. Am I pronouncing his right now correctly? Uphendale. Um but we've had Lowe's over the years, and and uh we get some Irish facilitators and all a big mix, and it's just a weekend of singing and celebration and showcasing, and it's really gorgeous. So we can't wait. It's on in October this year.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

Yeah. And and specializing in a specific genre of music or all types of music?

SPEAKER_01 35:02

Uh we try like this year, we have like we we try and do a variety of different workshops, but it's gospel, it's pop, it's musical theater, it's a lot of work on solo singing, confidence building. We have world music this year, um, we have chanting, we have circle songs, we have beatboxing. Um some years we do like drumming, choreography, try and mix it up and offer people something different. Um, but this year we're focusing more on kind of soloist workshops, uh, group singing, pop, musical theater, gospel. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:35

I think what's amazing is is that your life is so rich in music. Um it's not just,

Personal Development And Being Paid Fairly

SPEAKER_00 35:44

you know, you you obviously do lots of administration and and management, of course, um and so much creativity, but it it really is a life completely uh surrounded by music. Um and I I think one is very fortunate to have that. I think if you are able to create a life like that, um and I and I I count I count myself included in that because I've I've created the same. Just everything around me is in music, and and there are many of us around, and and it and it is a wonderful thing to be part of a community of people who can do that. So, you know, I'm you know, for many people they've they've had their own day jobs, and then they have managed to do you know, create choirs and and s or or gig in the evenings and weekends and things, and they've managed to create a a side, another interest, another job, or an or a hobby, or something separate to their their normal working life. And then there are the people that have managed to transform their lives and change the balance around where they can do what they love seven days a week, 365 days of the year. And that is an incredible thing. And I think I think there are some people that you know I I've worked in music my whole life, but I've had lots of other other interests as well, and I've been involved in other businesses and other uh in other industries with my my family and and friends and all sorts of things, but my love, my soul is in music, and I feel you're the same. I feel I feel that we are we are completely surrounded by music in every single direction, no matter what other interests we have, no other, no matter what else we do in our lives, it's music that is completely controlling everything. Is that is that a fair point?

SPEAKER_01 37:41

Yeah, it's a it's a great point. And and for us as well, like I I've only said mentioned one sister that you met before, Claire, but actually my whole family works in this school. It's like family, it's a family school. My mum pops in, she's 85, she does the cleaning. She loves she loves getting in there, sorting the stuff out. She's in the choirs, you know. My sister is our bookkeeper, we've got another sister who comes in and does art. My younger sister, Ailish, is a choir director, she's trained in the last couple of years. My son works there. You know, it's a real family project for us. And then our staff that we have, we've got such incredible teachers. We've got Susan, we've got Nee, we've got Keen, we've got so they're they're so talented, they're they're part of the family, and it's like this thing of music family people every day, and it's a privilege, it's an absolute joy and a privilege. And I know I'm so so lucky, and I don't know what else I would do. I don't know what else. It's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

You I I I stopped using the word luck a long time ago because I don't think you're lucky, I think you're fortunate, and I think there's a difference. I think you none of this has been created by luck. You've you've created you've created this life, and I I've m mentored many people over the years, but I still say to this day to anyone, you can you can make your life whatever you want it to be, and you can make changes, and you can do what you love to do. You just have to find a way of doing it in one way or another. But I think it's I think I think we're fortunate. I think we're very fortunate to be in this industry. We're very fortunate to have the ability that we have and to do what we love to do. But we no one spun a wheel and picked the number to make it happen. You worked really hard to achieve this. We've we we work hard at what we do.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

Yeah, and I think that like the key to s being able to get to the point where it's all working is like continued personal development, like you know, being able to take feedback, being able to not take things personally, being able to know when you're getting burnt out, to be able to ask for support, to be able to get value, because it's like one of the hardest industries, I think, to be paid properly in and to learn how to ask for how to be paid. And um, yeah, I think that personal development is key to lasting. And whenever I have I do a lot of creativity coaching with young people, and when their parents say, like, should they really be going down this route of music? And I'm like, Yeah, there's uh absolutely a career for people, full-time career in music. You just have to, you know, A, mind yourself, B, understand like what is it like to be a creative person and what does it involve? What is that roller coaster of being a musician, being a creative person? You know, how do you mind yourself within that and identify what it is to be a creative person? It's a different type of, you know, thing. Um, and then see like where are the avenues that you can really find your value, be respected, be seen, you know, get paid properly, and still have your creative outlets. And when you start to be able to match all those jigsaw pieces together, it's it's very doable and then very rewarding.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

It is, and it as you say, it is exhausting. It is, you know, we do get burnt out very easily because it's emotionally draining, um, as well as as well as being a very physical job that we do. And I think that people often underestimate because they think, oh, it's in music or in the arts, or that's just very easy, you know, just go and sing, or you just go and play, just wave your arms about or run a choir, or you know, it's really, you know, it it takes a huge amount of work and effort and it is exhausting. Um and I, you know, I I've I've always had huge amounts of energy. Um, I was always accused by my by my mother of burning the candle at both ends, as they say, and then just collapsing in a heap for a couple of weeks needing a holiday, you know. And I'm still like that to this day, you know. I I work really hard, not because I have to, of course, yeah, I have a family to support and a mortgage and all those things, but I love what I do. And that's I can tell you're exactly the same as that. You are so deeply passionate. How do you mind yourself? How do I?

SPEAKER_01 41:41

How do you mind yourself when you're when you're getting that burnout feeling? Um, I

Preventing Burnout With Planned Rest

SPEAKER_01 41:46

think for me to be dead by it, like you see it.

SPEAKER_00 41:49

I think for me it's about um planning breaks. Um I live I live for my my holidays. I really do. Um and I I always have because I I find it very difficult to relax uh and switch off. I find it very difficult, especially at home, we have a busy family life, um, but I find it very difficult to just you know close my studio door and then just go and you know sit down and relax for the weekend. I I find that really difficult. And even if I try and take off a few days, I'm sitting around thinking, I could be doing something, I could be doing something. Now, if I'm on holiday and I've shut down everything and I've closed the computers off and I've tied up all the loose ends and I go away knowing that I'm going away for a couple of weeks or whatever it might be, I find I'm able to switch off after a few days and deeply relax. And so I try and get regular breaks as much as I can, three or four times a year if possible, to get up get some time off just to chill out, and I come up with the my best ideas in that time when I've got some headspace. But I plan them. I I I I'm I can be very spontaneous, but I try and plan, you know. I've got my my work is is planning two years ahead now, but I try and plan all my family holidays in as well, so I know when my breaks are going to be, and then I drive myself hard for those moments. Um I think I think that uh listening to music uh can can help a lot to to relax if you know the right music to listen to. But the minute that I put on you know something remotely related to what I'm doing, I go into work mode. I'm listening to the music as work rather than listening to it to try and relax me. It's difficult, isn't it? I mean, because that's what we do. It's like when you go to, you know, when I go to the in I as I said, I specialise a lot in musical theatre coaching. And uh if I go to the theatre, I love the theatre. You know, I love going into the West End, into London and and watching them uh watching a show, but it's not as simple as just sitting there and watching the show because I'm constantly looking and analysing everything from a creative standpoint, it's really tough.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

Yeah, for sure. I hear you. Oh my god. I was looking at this thing recently that I've been trying to do, and it's I'm I'm already thinking it's impossible, but as a self employed person, you're meant to have like if you worked for a corporation, including your weekends and your annual leave and bank holidays, you would have around 135 days off in a year. So I'm trying to see if I can mark off 135 days in my calendar from this September till next September. And God, I don't even Even I don't know if it's possible. I'm gonna try. I'll keep you posted.

SPEAKER_00 44:35

Ah, but you know, that's an amazing thing to be able to do. I I can't imagine, you know, I I I you know, when you're working for yourself, you you know, you get to choose how when you work. You know, people often say if you work from home, you know, you just get up and work when you when you want to, and my goodness, I find I'm you know, so I'm so disciplined. And you know, and when it comes to, you know, I I I'm I'm on 24, I'm 24-7, I'm switched on. But I I think it I I think you end up working harder than if you had set hours. If you knew you had a nine to five job and you've got your four weeks off a year or six weeks off a year, you and you know, all the bank holidays and everything else, you you'd be able to you you have everything aligned, but it doesn't work like that when you're working for yourself, and especially I think in a creative industry. Um I I I think I have quite a lot of holiday, but actually when you when you look at the hours you work against hours you're not working, it's not not that much really.

SPEAKER_01 45:31

Yeah. I just did a three-week holiday um and you know now I have two weeks before the school opens to finalise all songbooks for the whole year for all choirs. So like this two-week period is super, super intensive. But when I was away there, I had such a deep like you, so we're so similar. Like just had such a deep rest, swimming in the sea every day, really just taking time up time off. It was so beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 45:54

And so happy.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

And I feel really rejuvenated and ready now, you know.

unknown 45:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:58

And in fact, people have been, I I was away recently for a couple of weeks, and people have said to me, You, you know, you were tired before you left. You know, you kept saying you were tired, you had a headache, you you know, you were exhausted, and I don't even remember saying those things. And then they said you've come back, you've got all this energy, and I haven't really noticed I've got any more energy, but people notice these things. And I think you know, we can the message we can pass to our to our friends and colleagues is you know, take some time off. It's really important.

unknown 46:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

I think that's a really good point. When you love what you do and you enjoy like every choir rehearsal I go to, I I feel great afterwards. So, like, I don't really get the mental stress from my job that other people might get, but my body, my body is you know, telling us, you know, like you're saying your headache or you're tired or you're not sleeping as well, or your gut problems, or whatever. It's like your body is just taking the stress because you're having a great time, because you love your work. You're having a great time.

SPEAKER_00 46:52

It's true, it's true. And it's very difficult to come down after after rehearsals and after, you know, people think, oh, just come home. Yeah, my wife often says, I'll, you know, I'll get home. She said, Come home, just go straight to bed when you get home. You'll you'll feel better, you know. I can't do that. It's impossible. I've been been working, singing, you know, conducting for two or three hours. I can't just switch off.

SPEAKER_02 47:12

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:13

What have you got coming up next? What what's uh what's next for you? What are you what are you excited about in the in the foreseeable future?

What’s Next And How To Stay Connected

SPEAKER_01 47:20

Um so them we're working on our choral festival now, releasing that. It's uh in October. I've got some of my own little shows. Um, we've got a new choir launching. Um yeah, just yeah, more of the same because it's it's so beautiful, it's all working beautifully, so more of the same on until we need something new. It's it's gorgeous. Lovely little routine, and um looking forward to seeing all of our choir members and all of our staff and just opening the doors again. It'll be it'll be gorgeous.

SPEAKER_00 47:49

Well, Ima, it's been uh so fantastic. Well, I was just gonna I was gonna just close up, but for me, uh well, I've got I've got a ton of concerts coming up over the next 12 months or so, 18 months. Um, choir festival, World Voices Festival is is very exciting uh this year in St Albans, and then we head to Vienna next year and to Manchester, and I'm can conducting uh choirs and orchestras in Finland and Hong Kong next year, which is very exciting. So there's lots of exciting things coming up.

SPEAKER_01 48:21

Um but it's and when my choir members are listening to this and you're talking, and I say to them, I listen to this guy, should we go to his festival? What would you tell them?

SPEAKER_00 48:30

Well, it's a no-brainer, obviously. But you know, I I I'm very passionate about my festival, and we've had now um over 5,000 people um through the doors from over 250 choirs. Uh, I'm sure that number's increased since I last counted. But it is one of the most inspiring things that I've ever created. Uh, and I still to this day love every minute, and we get people coming back and back and back and back all the time from all over the world. Um, and they have the greatest time, they learn, they meet new new people, they meet new choirs, they work together, they collaborate, and they come out feeling so uplifted. It's such a great experience. And it might not be so and I was gonna say it might not be competitive because a lot of these really exciting projects are often competitive, it's non-competitive, but that's one of the one of the selling points, I think, for us. I think it's it's a it's a great thing, the World Voices Festival. And uh yeah, it'd be lovely to have you there. Ema, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been such a pleasure talking with you and all the wonderful things you do and are doing. Um, it clearly means so much to you and the people that you work with, and uh genuinely it's been an absolute privilege talking with you today. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 49:47

You too, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 49:51

Thank you so much for listening to the Choir Director Podcast. It's been wonderful having you here today. And if you found today's conversation valuable, please take a moment to leave us a rating and review. It genuinely helps us reach more choir directors and grow this community together. And don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if you know a fellow director who'd benefit from today's conversation or any of the amazing guests we've had on the show, please share it with them. It means the world to us and it could make a huge difference to them. To stay connected between episodes so you never miss a thing and receive exclusive content, do join our mailing list. Link is in the show notes. And if you have a question about today's topic or any of the topics that we're covering, perhaps a question to our guest or something you'd love us to explore on a future episode, you can email the studio or leave us a voicemail. Both links are waiting for you in the show notes. Well, thanks again for being part of the Choir Director Podcast. I'm Russell Scott, and until next time, goodbye.