Welcome And Why Rehearsals Matter

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Welcome to the Commodore Podcast, the essential resource of commoditors, conductors, and vocal leaders who want to build stronger choirs, run better rehearsals, and create outstanding musical experiences. Welcome back to the Comma Director Podcast with me, Russell Scott. This is episode 33. And on today's show, I'm joined by Manvinda Rattan, choral and orchestral conductor, and one of the UK's most experienced conductor trainers. Manvinda led conductor training for Sing for Pleasure for many years, and he's also been musical director of ensembles, including Hartford Choral Society, as well as the John Lewis Partnership Music Society. In this episode, we'll talk about what makes rehearsals work in the real world, how to build a sustainable choir culture, how conductors can develop clear, expressive technique, and a few practical habits that you can really use in your next rehearsal. Welcome to the show, Manvinda.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Russell, thank you so much for the warmth of your welcome. I'm delighted to be here and looking forward to having what's going to be a very entertaining chat, I hope.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

I'm sure it will be. Tell us a little bit about your background into music. I mean, you go back a long way. I'm not suggesting you're old, of course, but you go back a long way. Huge experience. Um tell us a little bit more. Because you, you know, as a conductor as well as a conductor trainer. Um it would be lovely to know to understand a little bit more about your work and how you got into it to start with, at just right at right at the an early age, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Yeah, fine. So I am, like so many others, the product of inspirational music teachers. I still occasionally see my primary school teacher pottering around uh a noted upper end supermarket, not so long far from here, uh, which will remain nameless. Um, but uh, you know, he and he's still he's still out and about, we still have chance. And uh, you know, I can I was born in East Africa. Uh I moved here when I was quite young. And uh classic sort of immigrant family, music's not a thing. You know, you're supposed to go into finance or medicine or law or something like that. That's that's what you do when you immigrate to another country immigrate to another country, you go for financial and political stability. So music really doesn't feature in that. But I was very lucky to have very rich and inspirational musical experiences right the way through from uh the age of five, right the way through to the age of 18, certainly. Um, and I still remember eating my lunch uh in in my film uh in the classroom at my secondary school, and my music the head of music was also my form teacher, and he walked in one lunchtime and said, Ratan, what are you doing? And I said, I'm eating my lunch there. He said, No, put that down, come and sing Height and Creation. And there I was at the age of 11. You don't question those sorts of things at that age, you just go and do as you're told. Um, and I absolutely fell in love with Haydn Creation, I've conducted it myself several times now, and no inside out, back to front. Um, and and those rich experiences, and at the same time, I was a horn player, I just enjoyed playing, and I was playing a Haydn Symphony at the age of 11 and transposing at sight, not thinking that this was a bizarre thing. This is what you all do, isn't it? And isn't that an interesting thing for music education? If we give kids phenomenal, rich musical experiences, they are unlikely to ever think that they're too hard. They'll simply get on with this and give of their best, and through doing so, learn from that. So I went through music, uh went through school doing a bit of music study, but not much academic study, and went off to university to study French and history, but where I also had a lot of musical experiences and a choral scholarship. And that

The Accidental Path Into Conducting

SPEAKER_01 3:44

choral scholarship at Ripon in North Yorkshire was quite an important moment for me because, as part of the scholarship, I was sent on my first conducting course with Sing for Pleasure at the time. And I didn't realize that this was going to be a completely game-changing moment in my life. Uh, because I wasn't supposed to be a musician, I was supposed to be a uh a commercial retail person, you know, buying minimum or something for some shop or other. And that's what the plan was. That's what the plan was. Um, and uh, so I did these conducting courses for a couple of years, and they were I was quite good at it, apparently. I was all right, and they had me back. And then uh when I came to John Lewis as a grad trainee, had a commercial existence for a number of years, and then got involved in their music society, um, and realized that actually I was possibly better than the guy who was doing it, who wasn't actually inside the company, and I was. So I put my hat into the ring and they said, Yes, why don't you give it a go? And then suddenly there I was, faced with a choir and an orchestra in a posh church in the middle of Piccadilly in London. Uh, you know, I didn't sleep for three weeks properly beforehand, it was really quite something. But there started an accidental journey into music as my profession, and eventually, because we grew that so much, we grew from one choir that sort of did two performances a year. Uh eventually, by the time I left it, we had 21 choirs and orchestra and the rock band and the jazz band and the music tuition service and around 40 performances a year, both in the UK and abroad. So a very rich musical experience that enriched the lives of people in the company who sang and played in those in those ensembles. So um accidentally I became a musical professional. Um, alongside all of that, I was I trained to be and then became head of conductor training for Sing for Pleasure, where I'd learned the craft myself. And that was that was a fundamentally a very important bit of work for me because it wasn't just about the mechanics of what you do with your hands, it was about behaviors, it was about engagement, it was about teaching styles that uh uh it was about teaching styles that really allow singers, whoever they are, from wherever their start point to be musically fulfilled and enriched along the way. So, yes, I've had a I'm very lucky, you know. I've travelled and worked all over the world this year, concerts in places like Turin, in Malta, Brussels in a couple of weeks, off to India for a for a for a lecture, lecture cruise at the end of the year um on Indian classical music, which is another strand I do some work on. So you can set me off and get me going, and I'll keep talking. So I'm gonna stop and ask you to give me a few more good questions.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

It's the long longest answer I think I've ever ever heard on a on a correct question. But I had a feeling about that when I when I spoke when I thought about inviting you on the show. I knew I'd get some very long answers, and that's wonderful because you've had, you know, as you say, you've had a very, very rich uh musical uh upbringing and and career. And it that is wonderful because you've seen all sides uh of the spectrum, really, from what it is to learn, what it is to sing, what it is to conduct, what it is to work in the workplace, and to teach uh conducting as well. But but when it when you first started, did you ever think you would be doing what you do now? No, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

And that's in my own life. I have far, far exceeded my own imagination as to what my life would be. You know, I'm I'm off after our chat, I'm off to a school reunion in in town, and and all my colleagues look at me like in slight awe that he's really made it. You know, he's he does the best job. And even though they might be, you know, on really nice jobs in PR and marketing and law and recruitment and all of this, they all look at Man Linder and say, My goodness, how did he get that? So my life has far exceeded what I ever thought it was going to be, because I've had access to the sort of training and opportunities that I have, both as a conductor trainer and as a conductor of choirs and orchestras. So, yeah, and I'm actually saying the life of so many people that I work with, you know, I see the lives of, yeah, I hope he doesn't mind me saying, but people like Matt Ruffley, who I know works for, works with you on a number of occasions. And I remember starting with Matt when he was a rookie student of mine at Single Pleasure. And I see where his life has gone as a result, and it absolutely delights my heart to see his life and many others like him far exceed what they otherwise might have been, because they've got the right tools and the right behaviours and the right outlooks in

Training Routes For New Choir Leaders

SPEAKER_01 8:22

place.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

And that's interesting that you've you've honed in on that, you know, about having the right tools, the right behaviours. Um, and when it comes to conducting, there there are now so many thousands and thousands of choirs all over the world, tens of thousands. Um, not just community choirs, but uh, you know, choral societies and uh children's choirs and school choirs and church choirs. There's there's there's choirs everywhere you look. And I think since the pandemic um it has grown tenfold, you know. I think because singing was seen as something so good for health and well-being, um, is that that more and more choirs were formed, especially um here in the UK. And often they've been formed by just people who love singing, not necessarily trained individuals or people that studied music or studied conducting, but people that just want to bring people together to sing. And I think some of them have stumbled along the way because they've realized there's more to it than just standing there and moving a body and moving your arms around, because there's there's something very um, I suppose, intelligent about it. It's intelligent thinking when you're working with singers, when you're working with choirs. And you you do, you know, you obviously have to understand music, but you have to understand people as well. And I think that that conductors, I suppose less experienced conductors need somewhere to go to get better because they realize they can do something, they can change lives, they can bring people together, they can create groups of people that sing and make an amazing sound. And they want something more than that. They want some personal development. So, for those people that feel that way, what is available for them? Now, obviously, I don't want to use this as a a promotion tool uh today. But we obviously want to keep a conversation. So it's not about, you know, not about, well, sign up here, go to this website and away we go. What I'd like to what I'd like to to really see is if if you can offer some advice to those conductors that perhaps, or they maybe they don't even realize they're a conductor, they just run a choir. What could they do to improve what they do to get to the next step in their journey?

SPEAKER_01 10:37

Of course. It's an excellent question, Russell. It really is. And fundamentally, it's learning about all the stuff you don't know, you don't know. Uh and uh I'm in the I've just started a four-day conducting course that I'm delivering for an organization where there's a huge spectrum of talent from those who are absolutely at entry level and some very, very sophisticated musicians as well. And all of them are progressing at their own rate, but they are discovering that the building blocks of really good teaching technique in front of singers really gets you a good musical result much faster and much more sustainably than you would if you didn't use those skills. And oddly enough, you know, I mean I think one of the key things that I've always taught is to teach, conduct the choir you've actually got in front of you rather than the one you're fantasizing about. And for me personally, that ranges from absolutely entry level right the way through to professional. And I adapt my conducting, my style, my approach, my language, everything, uh, depending on who it is I've actually got in front of me. And the toughest gig, the toughest gig is walking into, for example, and this is a real example, 600 accountants and saying to them who I am, and then saying to them, I'd like you not to react to the person next to you when I'm saying the next phrase, but there's a post-it note in front of you. Please write your reaction down there. Uh, because in 40 minutes' time we're going to be singing together as a choir and six-part harmony. And the reaction is always the same. I've done this workshop a lot, and it's sort of get me out of here. And on one occasion I had security cards on the doors to make sure no one could escape. Uh, and because a couple of them tried at that moment. And and uh it was always a couple of curious, one or two excited. Mainly, I don't sing, mainly I don't get me out of here fast. Get me out of here fast. And then I do I do the thing. I do the I do the thing. And of course, in 40 minutes time, they're singing in six-part harmony, and they're very excited. And at the end, I say, right on the next post it note, write your reaction now. And it's always the same, my goodness, we've just achieved something we didn't think we could achieve. We didn't think we could achieve it. And then I say to them, guys, well done, congratulations. Have a think about what that means for you in your professional lives, and have a think about what it means for you in your personal lives. If you're capping your own life in some way that with the right leadership and training, you could perhaps do a lot more with or different with. So having those skills is really, really helpful. And yeah, you can clearly, I hear it is the commercial, the ashameless bit of advertising, you can clearly go onto my website, identify the conducting courses that I'm doing, or if you've got a group of people that you want to club together, you know, you can book me for an extra, you know, one, two, or a four-day course, and I'll come and do the training with you. Uh Singford Pleasure also do run some courses around the country, and that's worth glancing at. Uh, but what I focus on is the key building blocks it takes to get everyone singing to the best of their ability. And so wherever they are, to be able to get them a little bit further, and then a little bit further, and a little bit further, and it's very exciting to see people progress beyond their own imagination for their singing lives.

Planning Rehearsals For Real Progress

SPEAKER_00 13:53

And singing, singing is something that does change lives and it does enhance lives enormously, but conducting is a very different world, and it can be a very lonely world, a very lonely world indeed, because as a conductor, you often don't get feedback, and you are directing, and people are looking up to you for inspiration, for direction, for consideration, I suppose, of of what what they're expected to do as as singers? You know, do they just stand in there and just open their mouths and sing? What do what do they do? You know, you tell us what you want and we'll do it, and tell us how you want it. So, as a conductor, you have to be very disciplined yourself and know exactly what you're hoping to get and what you're aiming for, what you're what you're striving for. How do we motivate conductors to know what to do and how to do it?

SPEAKER_01 14:51

It's my goodness, Russell. How long have you got? Um, here goes. Uh be prepared. Know your stuff. Don't walk onto that podium thinking you're gonna wing it. I remember making that mistake in my twenties, and I very quickly learnt that it doesn't wash. You know, people will see through it, and you're wasting their time, and you're wasting your own time. Have a clear picture of what good sounds like in the context of the choir you're actually working with at that time. You know, to be realistic about how far you think you might be able to take them in terms of vocal technique. And vocal technical warm-ups are really critical in order to uh spending ages of time without any music just listening to what's going on sound-wise, getting the sound blended, getting it in tune, getting the consonants in place, getting the right colours in place, using simple repertoire to get nice musical results, because that can really boost confidence rather than trying to head for very challenging repertoire that they're gonna struggle with and not gonna make a nice sound with. So, so really having a clear picture, being well prepared, planning your rehearsal, saying, actually, how am I gonna do with it? How am I gonna divvy the work up so that it's it's achievable in the time spans I've got? Um, ensuring that you're balancing, you're phrasing carefully. Um so there's a degree of positivity, you know, that was great work. We're making good progress on this. Now we're going to work on this. What I hear is this, what I'd like to hear is this. Understand this piece of music because this is what it does. So adding a bit of context to what it is you're singing about so that their comprehension and then their ability to communicate that to their audiences is enhanced. So there's a whole bank of tools there that a conductor needs to like cherry-pick from, saying today I'm gonna have to focus on this. And of course, look, I've just started, as so many conductors have, uh an eight-week sequence leading into a concert. And what I expect at the beginning of those eight-week sequences and what I am expecting around week seven are two very different things. There'd be something wrong if they weren't. So having the right level of expectation as time progresses and adjusting the expectation, and every time they get better at it, raising the game so they can be even better the next time, so that they so that finally, and this is what I try and aim for, is a really interesting relationship at the performance between me, the music, the performers, and our audience. And if that relationship really clicks, and sometimes it really can, the feedback is quite momentous. I remember there being one performance earlier this year where there was a guy in the audience who happened to be the hard partner of someone in our choir who never opens his mouth about anything, and that's absolutely fine. He's very quiet. But he came up afterwards and said that was completely electric. That was completely electric. Now it's very intangible. How do you get electric? How do you get electricity inside a performance? You know, it's very intangible, and sometimes it's literally that relationship between the performers and me, and then the audience's reaction, and then the music itself that it just fires up.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

How do you um balance being a joyful conductor, someone who just you know incites joy into everything that they're doing on stage? You want to have the best workable relationship with your singers. You want to have fun, you want to have laughter, you want to have the seriousness, the emotion, the musical intelligence. Now, how do you balance that without being intimidating?

SPEAKER_01 18:53

Having a bit of humor, trying to be nice, being quite firm sometimes. Uh, if if if a person or a group of people is not playing, I never identify an individual before in rehearsal. Just never do it. Uh, if you need to have the conversation, take it outside. Or work through the voice reps or whatever, whoever to whatever team you've got to send a message down the line. Uh, occasionally it's got to be me, uh, but never identifying an individual, stating clearly what my expectations is. I would like to hear that phrase sung in tune, please. Here it goes. Okay, that's still no better. Right, guys. Uh can you please put your one finger in your ear, other finger holding your score? You'll hear yourself in a really way. Let's sing that again and see if we can fix it. So, actually helping them, because these are ordinary human beings, sometimes experiencing us, sometimes not. They don't necessarily have the skills to know how to fix the technical issues they're encountering when they're singing, you know, a bit of Beethoven or something. So it's our job to identify how realistically I can help you be the best you can be. And and whilst I try never to cap anyone's potential at doing anything, being pragmatic about how far am I going to get my big choral societies to sound like a professional choir? No, I'm not. But my goodness, for a chorus society, they're pretty good. They really are pretty good. And the feedback from the audience affirms that actually that's what we're getting back from professional musicians in the audience who are telling me, Mad Vinda, they've really, they really hit the right notes for you today.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Because it's about balance, isn't it? It's a it's it's about getting a balance between being approachable and being one of

Leadership, Responsibility, And Your Brand

SPEAKER_00 20:30

them, part of the team, and being their leader at the same time, which you know it's difficult being being everyone's friend and everybody's leader, because leadership needs that separation, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 20:42

Yeah, completely. And and you you hit the nail on the head, you do have to stay. Ultimately, the responsibility is mine. Whatever happens on that performance, the responsibility is mine. If they make a mistake, that responsibility is mine. If the orchestra go adrift, that responsibility is mine, because I should have got them ready, I should have got them prepared to be the best they could be. And you know, thankfully for me, that's almost all uh always the case. But you're right, it's a very fine balance, and this is why this is why I've spent in alongside training conductors inside that. I've spent quite a bit of time trying to train them as leaders and a module in there around leadership training. Uh what behaviors does one display on the podium and off the podium that will enhance your credibility as a musical leader in the context in which you work? I also talk to young conductors, particularly about brand. You know, there's an interesting exercise I do, calling out the names of major companies, might be Apple, but Sherways, John Owens, Marks and Spencer, Ryan, whatever it might be, and asking them for a one-word reaction and then asking them to reflect. If I said your name out to a bunch of singers, how would they react? What's your brand? What does your brand say to the world? You cannot please everyone all the time, but you should always aim to remain true to yourself and who you are. And think about the people that could help you along with your career, and those that possibly might go the other way if you really, really cheese them off. And how do you manage all of that? Because I remember as a youngster, I struggled with a bit of this, you know, being almost treated like a demigod by some people. It was really quite disconcerting. And I like, I was lucky to have a coach at the time, a care a mentor, or whatever. And I said, How do I deal with this? I I can't. I'm having difficulty dealing with the very broad spectrum of behaviors people show towards me. Do I bridge this and understand it? And actually, I was well supported, so I I enjoy supporting particularly young conductors who aren't yet fully formed in that way to understand their position because they don't realize that people are looking when they're 18 and 19 or 20, and they're on the podium in front of 120 singers at an orchestra of 40. Yeah, uh, they they need to understand that people are looking. People are forming a view, people are forming a brand of who they are. So, yeah, it's it's it's a it's a multifaceted we're juggling so many balls in the air at the same time, the musical challenges, the singing challenges, the you know, the leadership challenges, the branding challenges, all of it.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

And it's interesting because uh I I mentor a number of choir directors, and uh it's interesting that you get similar problems

Managing People Issues With Care

SPEAKER_00 23:16

with most people. Um, the biggest problem are people. Which is which is funny because it's all about people. This is all about people that everything we do is about people, you know, it's how it's it we express. The people are playing the music, singing the music, you know. Um, and it's interesting because it it I often I often deal with issues that individuals have or are creating within the the choir. Um and the choir director just not sure how to deal with it because you know, for one reason or other it's complicated or they're involved somehow or they've not had to deal with the issue before. You know, how do you deal with someone that's not pitching very well? How do you deal with someone who's creating a bit of drama in their in their voice part? You know, how how how do you deal with people that are just not going to get off book when your entire choir sings off book? You know, how are you going to deal with people that are not their attendance is not very good, but you don't want to exclude them? You know, you there are many, many challenges. Do you do you find it you you kind of have set techniques, set ways of dealing with these kind of situations? Or do you do you think it really is about each individual situation? And are there better ways to deal with things?

SPEAKER_01 24:38

This is possibly one of the toughest things all conductors face. And to be honest, Russell, every individual is different, and the way they're coming to a problem situation is going to vary from very much from individual to individual. Um, firstly, having a management structure in place in a big choir. So one of my choirs is big, it's 110 singers, so I can't deal with all of those individually. Um so I have voice leads, voice reps, or whatever, and actually, if I have a problem, I'll go to them first, but it may well still come back to me. Um, because if they say, Look, I've tried my best, I cannot reconcile this one, you're gonna have to take this one. Um, I then then it will come back to me. And I think because we're talking about the heart as much as we are talking about the head when it comes to these singers, particularly if it's someone for whom we've been singing for forever. And you know, I've had a couple of examples in the last couple of years where where very sadly, you know, we've tried our best, and not just me, but my trustees have tried absolutely their best to try and get the right answer both for the choir and for the individual, but the individual's not really played ball and has decided, you know, to say farewell. And I think that's rather sad because we haven't found a way. Um, but but we couldn't sustain those behaviors any longer. They had to change, something had to give. Um, and uh and and of course, with maturing voices, there can be a gap between the reality of what's coming out of someone's mouth and what they think is coming out of their mouth. And if you try and bridge that reality and it's adversely affecting their heart, we're on we're on troubled waters. So we have to tread quite carefully. And so, you know, we've offered one-to-one coaching, we've offered one-to-one counselling, we've offered all sorts of stuff to help someone understand that their voice is no longer where they used to be. And you know, that we're understanding more, both in men and women, how aging and the in the changing body can affect your ability to sing. Um, but sometimes, you know, sometimes it's going to be a question of they don't want to hear it, they do not want to hear it. And then, you know, you turn to your chair of trustees and say, here's what I think may have to happen. I'm really sorry, but what do you reckon? And then then we get a consensus and then we move forward. But very often, very often, a conversation will will result in, okay, I just didn't know. So thank you for telling me. I I used I learned this one from my time with John Lewis, managing linens in John Lewis Watford, which doesn't exist anymore. But peg, peg, problem. Here's the problem, here's what I expect, here's the gap. How do we gonna how do we bridge it, bridge it? Peg. My problem is you keep singing flat. Well, I'm not gonna say it like that, but I'd love your intonation to be better, you know. But and what I'd like is for you, like the expectation is I'd like you to be in tune with the rest of your part. Now, here's the gap. How do we help you bridge that? That's a very simplistic one, it's much more complicated than that, but you get my drift. Peg's peg's quite a good one. And people quite often do like the honesty of being told what's wrong so that they've got a chance to put it right. Almost everyone on that stage wants to give their best and do their best and give a performance of which they can be proud. And our job is to help them as far as we can to get to achieve that.

SPEAKER_00 27:53

Do you think um do you think when when you are working with experienced

Changing Habits Through Video Feedback

SPEAKER_00 28:01

directors, experienced choir directors who are very set in their ways and they've got habits that have lasted 20 years? And perhaps some of those habits don't get the results that they're hoping for. When you you know you know, you you watch a conductor and you think, oh, if they changed that, they would get such a different response from their group. But they are so it's so ingrained into their DNA, I suppose, in how they are as a person, in how they've conducted for the last 20 years. How do we change those habits?

SPEAKER_01 28:35

It's one of the toughest challenges I face uh on almost a weekly or monthly basis when I'm teaching. That and I hope no one listening to this takes this pejoratively. But that sort of age range from 18 to 35, 40 is pretty well a walk in the park. People are not yet so formed as not to be able to understand, absorb, and translate into musical reaction the teaching and coaching that they are on the receiving end of. And then you get to the other end of the spectrum where it just becomes harder for the reasons that you're like, people are more formed, they're more established in who they are as people, and therefore they have a clearer idea of what it is that they want to do in their lives and their musical lives. And very often I find that through working in a group, you know, I restrict my groups really to around 10 because no, you don't get enough podium time if you don't restrict the slides to 10. Uh as many people as you like watching or singing and all have you, but 10 active participants. Um actually watching others being taught and seeing the change being effected in others will help them open the door as to the reality that they need to as well. And the challenge with then I face is enabling them to make the change. Very often, actually, at that point, the resistance has gone, but the ability to effect change at that moment is hampered by the fact that they're so ingrained as to what they do. So that can cause not frustration with me or my teaching, but it will quite often cause frustration in themselves. That why can't I do this as well as that 22-year-old over there? Why can't I do that? And then my job is to calm them down, say they're there in a loving, warm learning environment that I'm famous for for creating. I say that because some of them play Manvinda Bingo. There's a there's a set card of Manvinda statements that I use pretty well all the time, and they mark it off and search out loud uh when I've when I've sort of said all of them in a session. It's quite funny. It's funny what your students do, they get so used to you, they they they at least they they feel able to take the mick in that way, but it's quite funny. Um, and that was one of them. But that that ability of maturer conductors to effect change even when they want to is tough. Um, I encourage them to film themselves on the podium when I'm working with them. I encourage them to film themselves when they're working with their with their home choirs and watch it and reflect back. I often do one-to-one lessons doing video reviews of concerts or preferably rehearsals. It's better to better to film a rehearsal and actually do a one-to-one coaching session with a conductor and saying, let's analyze what happened there. What did you do gesturally? And what was the musical reaction? Was that musical reaction what you wanted, or did you want something else? And if you didn't get what you wanted, how did that process happen? So it's very much a session about not me telling them what I'm seeing, but very much a session about them realizing themselves what it is they've done to cause that musical reaction. Uh, and then giving them the tools, hopefully, to find alternatives so they can make it better next time. So every individual is different, you know. And I see some conductors who are fantastic in their particular arenas. They're really good at community work, or they're really good at the big chorus society work, or they're really good at the top-notch chamber choir work, or they're really good orchestral conductors, or actually, some of them are just fantastic at all of that. And and uh sometimes if they want to do more than their specialist area, they can find it a little bit harder than they would like. So my job is to try and help open the doors for those people as much as I reasonably can.

SPEAKER_00 32:28

I think we're always learning, and I think I and it's one of the things I love about the work I do, um, whether it's mentoring, whether it's conducting, working with choirs, working with, you know, young up-and-coming talents. You know, it's I I love working in in environments where you are learning from each other. It's it's a fantastic environment. You know, going to collaborate with another choir or another orchestra, or you know, it's a wonderful experience being able to bring people together and learn from each other and watch other conductors, and you know, it's it's a fantastic thing. But there there is a fine line, isn't there, between confidence, arrogance, and ego. And

Quiet Presence And Projected Confidence

SPEAKER_00 33:04

how do you deal with it? I mean, you know, you've you've got to be able to, you've got to be able to receive, you've got to be able to understand, you've got to be able to contribute, but you've also got to know when enough is enough and it's not just about you on the podium.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

Oh, completely. Completely. Russell, you've you've you've said the phrase, you know, that sums up my answer beautifully. It's not about me. I'm the one person on the podium who's not making a noise. I'm supposed to be on that stage, and I am not the show. Uh, and so those that know me well know that I'm not a particularly big fan of conductors who dance around on the podium much. I'm sorry, but uh because actually, if you ask your mate to go and film that from an audience perspective and play it back to yourself, you'll soon see why I think it's not a particularly good idea, unless you are directing music, say, of African heritage, which the music, the movement is very much part of the music, and absolutely you need to. So they're yeah, but if you're if you're dancing like a loon in the middle of a bait having called fantasy or something, then it's not going to bring anything to the music. And that's where you need to be, I need to be presence quiet, presence quiet on the podium to enable everyone else to be the best they can be, to ensure that I'm giving all the signals I need to enable everyone to be the best they can be. Um, that's one thing. The second one I would say is fake it till it's real. Uh and this is a phrase my dear friend Mark Jordan said to my daughter, uh, who was on one of my conducting courses, and she was uh 19 or 18 at the time, and she's doing uh quite a tricky bit of modern modern uh uh a cappello writing, and she was getting quite nervy about it, understandable, understandable. And he she was young, she was young, and he said to her, you've got to portray confidence to get the confidence back, whatever you're feeling inside. And the classic Mandelda Bingo phrase there is you need to subsume your terrors, subsume your terrors and present a facade of utter conviction, because that will then get a conviction result back from your performers. If they absolutely trust you, if they absolutely trust you, they will go with you if you are able to hide the terror inside.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

That's amazing. That really is amazing. Maminda, it's been fantastic talking with you today. I've I've had a you know, it's just been an amazing interview listening and hearing all about a subject which I think is so important, and I know our listeners will will really enjoy listening to. So thank you so, so much for being on the show.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

Russell, thank you so much for having me. And can I say congratulations for all that you do to contribute to the core vitality of our country? I see I see the stories around, and I think way hey, people are having a great time. And so, congratulations, Russell. Keep it up, please.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Good to see you, Russell. Take care, bye now. The wonderful Manvinder Rattan. What a joy it was to have him on the show today. And we've got some fantastic guests

Closing Thanks And Staying Connected

SPEAKER_00 36:04

lined up in the next few weeks ahead. Plus, I've got an update following Jonas Rasmussen's release of his new book, The Playful Choir. More information about that coming next week. Thank you so much for listening to the Choir Director Podcast. It's been wonderful having you here today. And if you found today's conversation valuable, please take a moment to leave us a rating and review. It genuinely helps us reach more choir directors and grow this community together. And don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if you know a fellow director who'd benefit from today's conversation or any of the amazing guests we've had on the show, please share it with them. It means the world to us and it could make a huge difference to them. To stay connected between episodes so you never miss a thing and receive exclusive content, do join our mailing list. Link is in the show notes. And if you have a question about today's topic or any of the topics that we're covering, perhaps a question to our guest, or something you'd love us to explore in a future episode, you can email the studio or leave us a voicemail. Both links are waiting for you in the show notes. Well, thanks again for being part of the Comma Director Podcast. I'm Russell Scott, and until next time, goodbye.